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Forums - Politics Discussion - People's Convention 2020

Mnementh said:
S.Peelman said:
“People’s”. Sounds like communism.

Corporations convention and movement for a powerful party sounds so much better.

Lol, well maybe not so much.



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vivster said:

Wrong timing. Before you can have more parties in the US you first need reforms to establish democracy. Before that additional left leaning parties will only hurt their own cause. If they are going through with it that means they're either morons, just want money or both. Neither of those things are good qualities for a political party.

Out of itself in the current state America is in that would likely not happen, we are not even sure there will be a decent reform of the police after all of the protests of the people and reforming a democracy that most will effect the votes of the existing parties in a negative way will be even harder to get without other pressure.

And that pressure can be found just by the existence and popularity of that peoples convention group,it does not need to gain power fastly to hopefully have some influence on the idea of the positive effects of a third party in the mind of the american population.

That said, it can all be a selfpromoting scam and there is not enough information available to convince us otherwise but if this is really a sincere thing then it is always a positive even if it is a bit early.

Sec bold: And left leaning people in politics in america are already so rare to begin with, i know a few that have never gotten close to being elected and that's it.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 22 August 2020

vivster said:

Before that additional left leaning parties will only hurt their own cause.

The assumption being that there is already a left-leaning party in the first place?

The role of minor parties in American politics has either been: 

1. Supplant a dying party, see Whigs -> Republicans. 

2. Shift a major party to the minor party's position, see populists/progressives/farmer-labor/social labor, etc effect on the Democratic and Republican parties. 

Considering that the Democratic Party has chosen to be a center-right wing party, it makes sense for a center-left/left-wing party to run in 2022 and 2024.  



Immersiveunreality said:
vivster said:

Wrong timing. Before you can have more parties in the US you first need reforms to establish democracy. Before that additional left leaning parties will only hurt their own cause. If they are going through with it that means they're either morons, just want money or both. Neither of those things are good qualities for a political party.

Out of itself in the current state America is in that would likely not happen, we are not even sure there will be a decent reform of the police after all of the protests of the people and reforming a democracy that most will effect the votes of the existing parties in a negative way will be even harder to get without other pressure.

And that pressure can be found just by the existence and popularity of that peoples convention group,it does not need to gain power fastly to hopefully have some influence on the idea of the positive effects of a third party in the mind of the american population.

That said, it can all be a selfpromoting scam and there is not enough information available to convince us otherwise but if this is really a sincere thing then it is always a positive even if it is a bit early.

Sec bold: And left leaning people in politics in america are already so rare to begin with, i know a few that have never gotten close to being elected and that's it.

What kind of pressure can an absolutely insignificant movement apply that a sitting president can't? It's about priorities. First you oust the party that will definitely not give you what you want, the only way is to vote them out. So you vote Democrat. And not just once but for several legislatures and in a majority in both houses. After that you can apply pressure. Because then you're in a position of power. Before that nothing will work.

sc94597 said:
vivster said:

Before that additional left leaning parties will only hurt their own cause.

The assumption being that there is already a left-leaning party in the first place?

The role of minor parties in American politics has either been: 

1. Supplant a dying party, see Whigs -> Republicans. 

2. Shift a major party to the minor party's position, see populists/progressives/farmer-labor/social labor, etc effect on the Democratic and Republican parties. 

Considering that the Democratic Party has chosen to be a center-right wing party, it makes sense for a center-left/left-wing party to run in 2022 and 2024.  

It doesn't make sense at all. The number one priority for a left leaning party is to not have the most right wing party voted into the government. The only way to achieve that in the current system is to vote democrat. After you've established them, you can apply pressure. We had the perfect example of how not to do it last election. Left leaning people wanting to vote for Bernie boycotted Hillary and took votes away from the Democrats, the result was the exact opposite of what any left leaning person wants. So yeah, let's not do that bullshit again.

In the end it doesn't matter how right leaning the democrats are. Biden could walk up to the podium wrapped in a Nazi flag and greet the viewers with "Heil Hitler, my Niggers!" and he would still be the easy choice over Trump, because the chance is still more than zero to have reforms with Biden rather than the 0% with Trump, or any Republican for the matter.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

sc94597 said:
vivster said:

Before that additional left leaning parties will only hurt their own cause.

The assumption being that there is already a left-leaning party in the first place?

The role of minor parties in American politics has either been: 

1. Supplant a dying party, see Whigs -> Republicans. 

2. Shift a major party to the minor party's position, see populists/progressives/farmer-labor/social labor, etc effect on the Democratic and Republican parties. 

Considering that the Democratic Party has chosen to be a center-right wing party, it makes sense for a center-left/left-wing party to run in 2022 and 2024.  

I think the Republican party will go the way of the Whigs if they continue on the course they're on.

While it was an ongoing movement since at least Reagan, Trump really pulled the party so far to the authoritarian right that more and more establishment republicans are revolted about this movement and revolting against their party to some degree, just see The Lincoln Project or Republicans Against Trump for instance. If the core continues that way, I could see a wave of republicans changing their party affiliation to either democratic or libertarian and the GOP becoming a minor party as a result.

This would also pull the democratic party somewhat to the right, leaving amply space for a new party to the left of the democrats.



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vivster said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Out of itself in the current state America is in that would likely not happen, we are not even sure there will be a decent reform of the police after all of the protests of the people and reforming a democracy that most will effect the votes of the existing parties in a negative way will be even harder to get without other pressure.

And that pressure can be found just by the existence and popularity of that peoples convention group,it does not need to gain power fastly to hopefully have some influence on the idea of the positive effects of a third party in the mind of the american population.

That said, it can all be a selfpromoting scam and there is not enough information available to convince us otherwise but if this is really a sincere thing then it is always a positive even if it is a bit early.

Sec bold: And left leaning people in politics in america are already so rare to begin with, i know a few that have never gotten close to being elected and that's it.

What kind of pressure can an absolutely insignificant movement apply that a sitting president can't? It's about priorities. First you oust the party that will definitely not give you what you want, the only way is to vote them out. So you vote Democrat. And not just once but for several legislatures and in a majority in both houses. After that you can apply pressure. Because then you're in a position of power. Before that nothing will work.

sc94597 said:

The assumption being that there is already a left-leaning party in the first place?

The role of minor parties in American politics has either been: 

1. Supplant a dying party, see Whigs -> Republicans. 

2. Shift a major party to the minor party's position, see populists/progressives/farmer-labor/social labor, etc effect on the Democratic and Republican parties. 

Considering that the Democratic Party has chosen to be a center-right wing party, it makes sense for a center-left/left-wing party to run in 2022 and 2024.  

It doesn't make sense at all. The number one priority for a left leaning party is to not have the most right wing party voted into the government. The only way to achieve that in the current system is to vote democrat. After you've established them, you can apply pressure. We had the perfect example of how not to do it last election. Left leaning people wanting to vote for Bernie boycotted Hillary and took votes away from the Democrats, the result was the exact opposite of what any left leaning person wants. So yeah, let's not do that bullshit again.

In the end it doesn't matter how right leaning the democrats are. Biden could walk up to the podium wrapped in a Nazi flag and greet the viewers with "Heil Hitler, my Niggers!" and he would still be the easy choice over Trump, because the chance is still more than zero to have reforms with Biden rather than the 0% with Trump, or any Republican for the matter.

Bolded: It is good to have such a currently insignificant movement on the side, most started that way and even if it takes many years to gain a greater importance it is still worth starting it in the current state we are in and it can build from that. The question atm is : What will a sitting president do to be truly progressive within this current two party system? You can hope for the best and you can hope for change but the current political system is being played like a doll by capitalism.

Anyway this can all turn out to be another capitalist scam or lead by people without the needed knowledge and experience so i need to reserve myself.



Immersiveunreality said:
vivster said:

What kind of pressure can an absolutely insignificant movement apply that a sitting president can't? It's about priorities. First you oust the party that will definitely not give you what you want, the only way is to vote them out. So you vote Democrat. And not just once but for several legislatures and in a majority in both houses. After that you can apply pressure. Because then you're in a position of power. Before that nothing will work.

It doesn't make sense at all. The number one priority for a left leaning party is to not have the most right wing party voted into the government. The only way to achieve that in the current system is to vote democrat. After you've established them, you can apply pressure. We had the perfect example of how not to do it last election. Left leaning people wanting to vote for Bernie boycotted Hillary and took votes away from the Democrats, the result was the exact opposite of what any left leaning person wants. So yeah, let's not do that bullshit again.

In the end it doesn't matter how right leaning the democrats are. Biden could walk up to the podium wrapped in a Nazi flag and greet the viewers with "Heil Hitler, my Niggers!" and he would still be the easy choice over Trump, because the chance is still more than zero to have reforms with Biden rather than the 0% with Trump, or any Republican for the matter.

Bolded: It is good to have such a currently insignificant movement on the side, most started that way and even if it takes many years to gain a greater importance it is still worth starting it in the current state we are in and it can build from that. The question atm is : What will a sitting president do to be truly progressive within this current two party system? You can hope for the best and you can hope for change but the current political system is being played like a doll by capitalism.

Anyway this can all turn out to be another capitalist scam or lead by people without the needed knowledge and experience so i need to reserve myself.

One of my first thoughts about this movement was that it's yet another fake grassroot movement paid for by Republican think tanks.

Anyway, it shouldn't try to build a party, but rather a protest movement to push the Democrats further to the left, where they belong. A 3rd party is not the answer in the US and will hurt their cause more than anything. They can form new parties as soon as they introduced some democracy to the US.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:

It doesn't make sense at all. The number one priority for a left leaning party is to not have the most right wing party voted into the government. The only way to achieve that in the current system is to vote democrat. After you've established them, you can apply pressure. We had the perfect example of how not to do it last election. Left leaning people wanting to vote for Bernie boycotted Hillary and took votes away from the Democrats, the result was the exact opposite of what any left leaning person wants. So yeah, let's not do that bullshit again.

In the end it doesn't matter how right leaning the democrats are. Biden could walk up to the podium wrapped in a Nazi flag and greet the viewers with "Heil Hitler, my Niggers!" and he would still be the easy choice over Trump, because the chance is still more than zero to have reforms with Biden rather than the 0% with Trump, or any Republican for the matter.

"Vote lesser of two evils" has been the major strategy for the last fifty years. The result has been that politics in the United States has been shifting rightward due to the ratchet effect. The DNC's convention literally was just Bush Republicans (circa 2005) returning into politics as Democrats. 

 

The 1890's People's party   shifted the Democratic and Republicans left-ward, starting the progressive era. 

The Farmer-Labor Party shifted the Democratic Party leftwards, and eventually merged with it. 

Hell even the early 20th century Socialist Party shifted the Democratic Party leftwards by acting as a regional alternative in the Northeast and Midwest. 

If there isn't pressure from the left, the whole political system will continue moving to the right. 

And by the way, more Bernie primary voters voted Clinton, than Clinton primary voters voted Obama.

The idea that Biden could be a literal Nazi and be better than Trump is ridiculous. 

Last edited by sc94597 - on 22 August 2020

Bofferbrauer2 said:

I think the Republican party will go the way of the Whigs if they continue on the course they're on.

While it was an ongoing movement since at least Reagan, Trump really pulled the party so far to the authoritarian right that more and more establishment republicans are revolted about this movement and revolting against their party to some degree, just see The Lincoln Project or Republicans Against Trump for instance. If the core continues that way, I could see a wave of republicans changing their party affiliation to either democratic or libertarian and the GOP becoming a minor party as a result.

This would also pull the democratic party somewhat to the right, leaving amply space for a new party to the left of the democrats.

I think it is far more likely that the Democratic Party dies. The Whigs died because they were too large of a tent that couldn't take a decisive stance on slavery. Republicans, being a much smaller tent party, are able to hold more ideological and party cohesion than Democrats. Establishment Republicans really don't have the popular support base to "revolt", to be honest. They lost their credibility with the rank and file Republican during the Bush Jr. presidency. 




sc94597 said:
vivster said:

It doesn't make sense at all. The number one priority for a left leaning party is to not have the most right wing party voted into the government. The only way to achieve that in the current system is to vote democrat. After you've established them, you can apply pressure. We had the perfect example of how not to do it last election. Left leaning people wanting to vote for Bernie boycotted Hillary and took votes away from the Democrats, the result was the exact opposite of what any left leaning person wants. So yeah, let's not do that bullshit again.

In the end it doesn't matter how right leaning the democrats are. Biden could walk up to the podium wrapped in a Nazi flag and greet the viewers with "Heil Hitler, my Niggers!" and he would still be the easy choice over Trump, because the chance is still more than zero to have reforms with Biden rather than the 0% with Trump, or any Republican for the matter.

"Vote lesser of two evils" has been the major strategy for the last fifty years. The result has been that politics in the United States has been shifting rightward due to the ratchet effect. The DNC's convention literally was just Bush Republicans (circa 2005) returning into politics as Democrats. 

Is it accurate to say that the United States has been shifting rightward? Just curious, but do you have evidence of that? (Something more academic than anecdotal preferably)

Last edited by sundin13 - on 22 August 2020