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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Do you think Nintendo killed off the Wii too early

 

Was the Wii killed off too early?

Yes 41 53.95%
 
No, Nintendo needed to move on 35 46.05%
 
Total:76

No, I don't. Sales were slowing quite a bit before Wii U was even announced.Motion controls were a fad and a fad that was already starting to fade by 2011. The writing was on the wall and Nintendo saw it, and announced a successor. A poorly thought out and designed successor of course.



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curl-6 said:
Soundwave said:

It's not bad planning when you actually have games you could have released but chose not to. The Wii had a perfectly fine 2011 lineup, NOA just chose of their own free will not to release a bunch of games. 

That's not bad planning, that's being arrogant because you think you can cruise by on Wii Sports/Just Dance/Wii Fit/NSMB Wii and don't need games like Xenoblade or Fatal Frame or Last Story (all perfectly solid games). Why work and market these types of games when you don't have to. 

The other problem for Nintendo is casual mini-game collections are pretty easy to copy. It's not so easy to make a platformer as good as Mario or an adventure game like Zelda (many companies have tried and failed) or even a Pokemon game ... but a fun mini-game collection is a lot easier to copy. Kinect Sports was fun, much in the same way Wii Sports was. Wii Fit gave a work out, but that was easy to 10 other games to hop on board and also provide a fun workout. 

When XBox and Playstation 3 started basically get those same types of games (Kinect Sports, whatever the Sony Sports Wii Sports knock off was) the Wii became a lot less special. 

That really had more to do I think with the Wii's decline, even though NOA are jerk offs for not releasing Xenoblade, Last Story, Fatal Frame, etc., I doubt even if they had Wii sales would've been magically that different. 

Stuff like PS Move Sports did not significantly hurt Wii sales. It was a matter of software; 2006-2010 had strong software, 2011-2012 didn't.

Nintendo of America is definitely to blame for how horrendously they handled those last two years in the system's biggest market, yes. But even in PAL, while there were some choice picks for a gamer like myself, there still wasn't the kind of software strong enough to drive hardware momentum.

To support Curl's point: https://www.vgchartz.com/weekly/40909/Global/ - this is for the week ending December 31st, 2011

Pos Game Weekly Total Week #
1
Just Dance 3 (Wii)
Ubisoft, Misc
562,447 7,164,411 13
24
Just Dance 3 (X360)
Ubisoft, Misc
121,888 1,344,384 13

While conceivably it did have some impact, the Wii version of Just Dance 3 had very strong sales that year, selling around 150% better than the sales of Just Dance 2 in 2010, which released 12 weeks before the end of the year. Just Dance 3 on Wii would go on to become the highest selling release in franchise history at over 10 million units on Wii alone; it sold 2 million on Xbox 360 and 630K on PS3, which, while decent, don't seem to be impacting the Wii even though 2011 marked a massive decline over 2010. As a note, Just Dance 4 also did really well on the Wii, selling close to 7 million units - this also indicates that Nintendo, had they kept supporting the console, could have seen more games sell in the tens of millions because if Ubisoft can get up there, surely Nintendo could do better.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Jumpin said:

Soundwave said:
Honestly I think the OP is a false premise to begin with. Basically I think there is this (false) belief that somehow by supporting your previous system well it means your next system will do well because of brand loyalty or something.

But it's really not true if you actually look at it. In fact, the most successful modern Nintendo systems and the most successful Microsoft console all stem from those companies prematurely killing off the preceding system.

The DS was a massive success after Nintendo prematurely killed off the GBA.

You're strawmanning the original post. He's not saying that supporting it would mean the next console would do well too, so it's pointless to argue against that point and pretend you're defeating his post. He's asking what people think about the suggestion that the Wii might have been a better console to get behind than the Wii U in terms of profitability potential.

Your conclusion doesn't examine the facts correctly, either. The Wii and Switch were NOT popular because of prematurely killing off the Gamecube and Wii U, they were popular because they were compelling hardware with killer apps. It would be more accurate to say Gamecube and Wii U were dead/near dead on arrival, neither console was ever very popular.

And the DS was a massive success quite a while BEFORE Nintendo killed the GBA off - that's not premature. Nintendo heavily supported the GBA for about two years after the DS launch releasing some of its best games in this period. Many major franchises released on the system in holidays 2004 through 2006 including: Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Donkey Kong, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy, Harvest Moon, Mega Man, Yoshi, and Wario. Additionally, Nintendo released two new hardware revisions of the GBA (GBA Micro and Backlit GBA SP) after the DS came out.

The point is more that a previous system being well supported for an extra year or two doesn't really seem to make much difference in how the successor does at all unless you go to Sega-level extremes of ditching systems sometimes after 6 months. 

The Wii and Switch did benefit from killing off support from previous systems as it helped bolster the library for those systems (Twilight Princess + Super Paper Mario for Wii, BOTW + MK8 + and many, many other titles for Switch).

The Switch's library isn't anywhere near as strong if Nintendo didn't kill the Wii U and take most of its library. So that is interconnected. Also GBA was definitely ditched by Nintendo's development teams after Nov/Dec 2004 (DS launch). Games like Yoshi Topsy Turvy may have come out in the US in 2005, but they actually were finished and released in Japan by 2004. After 2004 there's not much original GBA development at all.

There's also the example of the XBox 360, which is by far the most successful non Nintendo or Sony platform and that system came out after MS killed the original XBox not only prematurely but even as sales were spiking (2004 was the best year for the XBox). 

I would say after 3-4 years of support, it really doesn't seem to matter how much longer past that you support a system. It doesn't translate to any further/better success for the next system. 

And indeed I would say there are examples of systems that were supported for too long that hurt the next system ... Nintendo was releasing way too many big gun titles for the N64 late in its product cycle (Zelda: MM, Perfect Dark) and while these games really didn't change the N64's lot in life (distant no.2 to Playstation), they definitely hurt not being on the GameCube, because the GameCube really badly could've used those games early on to have better momentum. 

Instead the GCN pretty much from day 1 struggled not only to outsell Sony but never really could shake even the XBox. 

Companies should prioritize much moreso the 1st year of a new console even if it comes at the expense of the previous system, that is SO important for the long term success, if you can get that right you have a much, much easier time the rest of the gen, it's like the difference between climbing uphill or going downhill. Nintendo has such an easier time now with Switch because they had such a good foundation from the strong first year (even really first 8 months specifically) that they've never really lost that momentum. But systems that start shaky and then try to find themselves later are such a fucking headache, it can be done, but it's so much damn work why ever put yourself in that shitty position. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 09 August 2020

Jumpin said:
curl-6 said:

Stuff like PS Move Sports did not significantly hurt Wii sales. It was a matter of software; 2006-2010 had strong software, 2011-2012 didn't.

Nintendo of America is definitely to blame for how horrendously they handled those last two years in the system's biggest market, yes. But even in PAL, while there were some choice picks for a gamer like myself, there still wasn't the kind of software strong enough to drive hardware momentum.

To support Curl's point: https://www.vgchartz.com/weekly/40909/Global/ - this is for the week ending December 31st, 2011

Pos Game Weekly Total Week #
1
Just Dance 3 (Wii)
Ubisoft, Misc
562,447 7,164,411 13
24
Just Dance 3 (X360)
Ubisoft, Misc
121,888 1,344,384 13

While conceivably it did have some impact, the Wii version of Just Dance 3 had very strong sales that year, selling around 150% better than the sales of Just Dance 2 in 2010, which released 12 weeks before the end of the year. Just Dance 3 on Wii would go on to become the highest selling release in franchise history at over 10 million units on Wii alone; it sold 2 million on Xbox 360 and 630K on PS3, which, while decent, don't seem to be impacting the Wii even though 2011 marked a massive decline over 2010. As a note, Just Dance 4 also did really well on the Wii, selling close to 7 million units - this also indicates that Nintendo, had they kept supporting the console, could have seen more games sell in the tens of millions because if Ubisoft can get up there, surely Nintendo could do better.

Just Dance was a pretty massive franchise at that time, you can't just say "well Nintendo could do better" ... Just Dance outsold Zelda: Skyward Sword, on par with Super Mario Galaxy 2, above Wii Music, above Animal Crossing (lol). It's probably part of the reason NOA got so arrogant ... why bother with Xenoblade and Fatal Frame when you can just sit back and let Just Dance sell to casuals. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 09 August 2020

Jumpin said:
curl-6 said:

Stuff like PS Move Sports did not significantly hurt Wii sales. It was a matter of software; 2006-2010 had strong software, 2011-2012 didn't.

Nintendo of America is definitely to blame for how horrendously they handled those last two years in the system's biggest market, yes. But even in PAL, while there were some choice picks for a gamer like myself, there still wasn't the kind of software strong enough to drive hardware momentum.

To support Curl's point: https://www.vgchartz.com/weekly/40909/Global/ - this is for the week ending December 31st, 2011

Pos Game Weekly Total Week #
1
Just Dance 3 (Wii)
Ubisoft, Misc
562,447 7,164,411 13
24
Just Dance 3 (X360)
Ubisoft, Misc
121,888 1,344,384 13

While conceivably it did have some impact, the Wii version of Just Dance 3 had very strong sales that year, selling around 150% better than the sales of Just Dance 2 in 2010, which released 12 weeks before the end of the year. Just Dance 3 on Wii would go on to become the highest selling release in franchise history at over 10 million units on Wii alone; it sold 2 million on Xbox 360 and 630K on PS3, which, while decent, don't seem to be impacting the Wii even though 2011 marked a massive decline over 2010. As a note, Just Dance 4 also did really well on the Wii, selling close to 7 million units - this also indicates that Nintendo, had they kept supporting the console, could have seen more games sell in the tens of millions because if Ubisoft can get up there, surely Nintendo could do better.

Thank you.

The idea that the Wii userbase had moved on from the system simply isn't true, JD3 in 2011 was in fact not only the highest selling in the series but the highest selling third party game on any Nintendo system, ever. Nintendo abandoned the audience, not vice versa. They pulled the plug too early.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 09 August 2020

Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

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curl-6 said:
Jumpin said:

To support Curl's point: https://www.vgchartz.com/weekly/40909/Global/ - this is for the week ending December 31st, 2011

Pos Game Weekly Total Week #
1
Just Dance 3 (Wii)
Ubisoft, Misc
562,447 7,164,411 13
24
Just Dance 3 (X360)
Ubisoft, Misc
121,888 1,344,384 13

While conceivably it did have some impact, the Wii version of Just Dance 3 had very strong sales that year, selling around 150% better than the sales of Just Dance 2 in 2010, which released 12 weeks before the end of the year. Just Dance 3 on Wii would go on to become the highest selling release in franchise history at over 10 million units on Wii alone; it sold 2 million on Xbox 360 and 630K on PS3, which, while decent, don't seem to be impacting the Wii even though 2011 marked a massive decline over 2010. As a note, Just Dance 4 also did really well on the Wii, selling close to 7 million units - this also indicates that Nintendo, had they kept supporting the console, could have seen more games sell in the tens of millions because if Ubisoft can get up there, surely Nintendo could do better.

Thank you.

The idea that the Wii userbase had moved on from the system simply isn't true, JD3 in 2011 was in fact not only the highest selling in the series but the highest selling third party game on any Nintendo system, ever. Nintendo abandoned the audience, not vice versa. They pulled the plug too early.

The problem with this logic is so what? OK so they could've maybe squeezed an extra year of selling Wii Party 4 for the Wii (things like Zelda: Skyward Sword and Sin & Punishment 2 even weren't putting up impressive sales towards the end). 

But then what? 

After 4-5 years of support, a system is what it is, you're not changing anything, but by extending support beyond that, especially with big titles it can harm the next system.

Especially Nintendo. They are so reliant on having a good start because they don't have the benefit of the developer support Sony gets, they have to have a great 1st 6-12 months for a system, it's absolutely critical.

Wasting big gun games in the twilight years of a console is a bad idea for Nintendo because it often leads to the next system having nothing great ready early on. The 3DS probably could've badly used one of those late release Pokemon games the DS got instead, the DS still would've ended up selling the same 150 million, but life probably would've been way easier for Nintendo. 



Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

Thank you.

The idea that the Wii userbase had moved on from the system simply isn't true, JD3 in 2011 was in fact not only the highest selling in the series but the highest selling third party game on any Nintendo system, ever. Nintendo abandoned the audience, not vice versa. They pulled the plug too early.

The problem with this logic is so what? OK so they could've maybe squeezed an extra year of selling Wii Party 4 for the Wii (things like Zelda: Skyward Sword and Sin & Punishment 2 even weren't putting up impressive sales towards the end). 

But then what? 

After 4-5 years of support, a system is what it is, you're not changing anything, but by extending support beyond that, especially with big titles it can harm the next system.

Especially Nintendo. They are so reliant on having a good start because they don't have the benefit of the developer support Sony gets, they have to have a great 1st 6-12 months for a system, it's absolutely critical.

Wasting big gun games in the twilight years of a console is a bad idea for Nintendo because it often leads to the next system having nothing great ready early on. The 3DS probably could've badly used one of those late release Pokemon games the DS got instead, the DS still would've ended up selling the same 150 million, but life probably would've been way easier for Nintendo. 

It's possible to strike a balance where you support a system until it's replacement and also give it's successor a good start; Nintendo just tend not to be very good at striking that balance, the Wii being perhaps the most obvious case in point.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 09 August 2020

Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

Besides, let's be honest, the Wii u was fucked from the start and supporting the Wii better in 2011-2012 wouldn't have changed that.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

curl-6 said:
Soundwave said:

The problem with this logic is so what? OK so they could've maybe squeezed an extra year of selling Wii Party 4 for the Wii (things like Zelda: Skyward Sword and Sin & Punishment 2 even weren't putting up impressive sales towards the end). 

But then what? 

After 4-5 years of support, a system is what it is, you're not changing anything, but by extending support beyond that, especially with big titles it can harm the next system.

Especially Nintendo. They are so reliant on having a good start because they don't have the benefit of the developer support Sony gets, they have to have a great 1st 6-12 months for a system, it's absolutely critical.

Wasting big gun games in the twilight years of a console is a bad idea for Nintendo because it often leads to the next system having nothing great ready early on. The 3DS probably could've badly used one of those late release Pokemon games the DS got instead, the DS still would've ended up selling the same 150 million, but life probably would've been way easier for Nintendo. 

It's possible to strike a balance where you support a system until it's replacement and also give it's successor a good start; Nintendo just tend not to be very good at striking that balance, the Wii being perhaps the most obvious case in point.

The GBA, GCN, Wii U had far worse late life cycle support than the Wii did. 

And all the successor systems to those machines sold great. 

So really probably what that tells you is late cycle support doesn't mean much really and cutting off support for an older system to ensure better early generation support for the next system has if anything worked well for Nintendo. 

To be honest maybe Microsoft would've been better off doing this too. I think they maybe should have considered ditching the XBox One in 2019 and getting a year headstart over the PS5. 

Sega really, is actually the outlier here and they did extreme things. 

I mean Sony too could've supported the PS2 into 2007 really if they wanted to and pushed PS3 into 2007 ... I don't think it would have helped the PS3 any bit though. 360 would've simply cemented itself a larger lead.



Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

It's possible to strike a balance where you support a system until it's replacement and also give it's successor a good start; Nintendo just tend not to be very good at striking that balance, the Wii being perhaps the most obvious case in point.

The GBA, GCN, Wii U had far worse late life cycle support than the Wii did. 

And all the successor systems to those machines sold great. 

So really probably what that tells you is late cycle support doesn't mean much really and cutting off support for an older system to ensure better early generation support for the next system has if anything worked well for Nintendo. 

To be honest maybe Microsoft would've been better off doing this too. I think they maybe should have considered ditching the XBox One in 2019 and getting a year headstart over the PS5. 

Sega really, is actually the outlier here and they did extreme things. 

I mean Sony too could've supported the PS2 into 2007 really if they wanted to and pushed PS3 into 2007 ... I don't think it would have helped the PS3 any bit though. 360 would've simply cemented itself a larger lead.

Better support in Wii's late life would've meant more revenue off both hardware and software in 2011-2012 though. Plus it's better for us as consumers to get more support for the hardware we spend good money on.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.