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Forums - Gaming - Poll - Is Switch a 9th gen console?

 

With Sony and MS releasing new hardware, will Switch be considered as 9th gen?

Yes 79 51.97%
 
No 73 48.03%
 
Total:152
Pemalite on 03 August 2020
LethalP said:
Traditionally a console generation represented a significant leap in technology. The 1st gen of consoles was the Magnovox Oddyssey with it's CPU-less design in 1972, along with Atari Pong. Then came the 2nd gen with the Atari 2600 in 1977. The first 'proper' console with a CPU and GPU (or custom co-processors). And with every generation came a new plateo of technology and capability. That's still the case today. Handhelds exist in their own continuity and this includes the Switch.

The term 'console generation' only really applies to PlayStation and Xbox anymore. However, it does effect PC and Switch in terms of third party development (positively for PC, and negatively for Switch).

The Switch is selling on the merits of it being a powerful Nintendo handheld (with a cool TV-out feature). It's success wouldn't be nearly as high as a home console only device. In fact It would suffer a similar fate as Wii U, because it would have all the same problems. I'm not saying the hybrid part of the Switch is a gimmick or anything, in fact it's a huge selling point and is integral to it's design (and name). I'm just saying that fundamentally the Switch is seen as a handheld device first, and is selling to that market. It's not really eating into PS and Xbox marketshare at all.

So if you suggest it's gen 9, then it is in the same way the 3DS was gen 8, DS gen 7, GBA gen 6, etc. But only as a handheld, and not in the traditional sense of a home console generation.

The PC most certainly does have generations... And is also in lockstep with technological progress.

For example the PC's equivalent "7th gen" hardware was basically any Shader Model 2.0-3.0 rig DX9 rig... And SM4.0 hardware basically took those same games but with a plethora of further enhancements.

The_Liquid_Laser said:

I'm thinking that what our disagreement comes down to is which systems actually compete.  I very much think the Wii U competed with PS4 and XB1.  That is a big reason why it sold so poorly.  Also, the 3DS and Vita definitely competed.  That is why the Vita did so poorly. 

What generations don't do is determine who will win, which is something you've been pointing out in your post. Maybe that is why you don't think they are meaningful.  They don't tell which system will win, but they do tell which systems are competing. 

Of course, we don't seem to be able to agree on which systems are competing.  We are probably talking past each other, because we don't even agree on which systems are competing.

The Wii U certainly did compete with the Xbox One and Playstation 4, but it's hardware feature set was certainly 7th gen.
We can have older/technically inferior consoles compete with newer ones... It happened all the time.

The Super Nintendo existed from 1992 until 1998 here and the Playstation 1 burst onto the scene in 1994. - Yet, despite the PS1 sharing a big chunk of it's competitive life with the SNES, it was considered a generation newer, likely due to it's hardware feature set.

Pyro as Bill said:

It'll be more like 3/7.

If Nintendo releases a home console Switch this holiday with the exact same specs as the hybrid, will it be 9th gen?

I would still consider it 8th gen due to it's technical underpinnings being based in 2015.




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d21lewis on 03 August 2020
Pyro as Bill said:
d21lewis said:

The Switch will have a successor in 2022. That's just the Nintendo way. And the XSX/PS5 will be around until maybe 2027 if not longer.

I'd even imagine the Switch successor being weaker than both consoles and coming and going (or leaving the market at the same time). It's just crazy to think about. With that said, 3/5 years of the Switch's life will be in direct competition with the other 8th gen consoles. But it's a ninth gen system?

It'll be more like 3/7.

If Nintendo releases a home console Switch this holiday with the exact same specs as the hybrid, will it be 9th gen?

GB: 1989 (9 yrs)

GBC: 1998 (3 yrs)

GBA: 2001 (3yrs)

DS; 2004 (7 yrs)

3DS: 2011 (6yrs)

NES: 1985 (6 yrs)

SNES: 1991 (5 yrs)

N64: 1996 (5 yrs)

GC: 2001 (5 yrs)

Wii: 2006 (6 yrs)

Wii U: 2012 (5 yrs)

Switch: 2017 (?)

I guess it's possible the Switch could last 7 years but I just don't see it. As much as I love my Switch and as amazing as it is to have certain games on the go, I just feel like there has to be an updated/upgraded version sooner rather than later.



d21lewis on 03 August 2020
Pemalite said:
LethalP said:
Traditionally a console generation represented a significant leap in technology. The 1st gen of consoles was the Magnovox Oddyssey with it's CPU-less design in 1972, along with Atari Pong. Then came the 2nd gen with the Atari 2600 in 1977. The first 'proper' console with a CPU and GPU (or custom co-processors). And with every generation came a new plateo of technology and capability. That's still the case today. Handhelds exist in their own continuity and this includes the Switch.

The term 'console generation' only really applies to PlayStation and Xbox anymore. However, it does effect PC and Switch in terms of third party development (positively for PC, and negatively for Switch).

The Switch is selling on the merits of it being a powerful Nintendo handheld (with a cool TV-out feature). It's success wouldn't be nearly as high as a home console only device. In fact It would suffer a similar fate as Wii U, because it would have all the same problems. I'm not saying the hybrid part of the Switch is a gimmick or anything, in fact it's a huge selling point and is integral to it's design (and name). I'm just saying that fundamentally the Switch is seen as a handheld device first, and is selling to that market. It's not really eating into PS and Xbox marketshare at all.

So if you suggest it's gen 9, then it is in the same way the 3DS was gen 8, DS gen 7, GBA gen 6, etc. But only as a handheld, and not in the traditional sense of a home console generation.

The PC most certainly does have generations... And is also in lockstep with technological progress.

For example the PC's equivalent "7th gen" hardware was basically any Shader Model 2.0-3.0 rig DX9 rig... And SM4.0 hardware basically took those same games but with a plethora of further enhancements.

The_Liquid_Laser said:

I'm thinking that what our disagreement comes down to is which systems actually compete.  I very much think the Wii U competed with PS4 and XB1.  That is a big reason why it sold so poorly.  Also, the 3DS and Vita definitely competed.  That is why the Vita did so poorly. 

What generations don't do is determine who will win, which is something you've been pointing out in your post. Maybe that is why you don't think they are meaningful.  They don't tell which system will win, but they do tell which systems are competing. 

Of course, we don't seem to be able to agree on which systems are competing.  We are probably talking past each other, because we don't even agree on which systems are competing.

The Wii U certainly did compete with the Xbox One and Playstation 4, but it's hardware feature set was certainly 7th gen.
We can have older/technically inferior consoles compete with newer ones... It happened all the time.

The Super Nintendo existed from 1992 until 1998 here and the Playstation 1 burst onto the scene in 1994. - Yet, despite the PS1 sharing a big chunk of it's competitive life with the SNES, it was considered a generation newer, likely due to it's hardware feature set.

Pyro as Bill said:

It'll be more like 3/7.

If Nintendo releases a home console Switch this holiday with the exact same specs as the hybrid, will it be 9th gen?

I would still consider it 8th gen due to it's technical underpinnings being based in 2015.

It would basically be a PSTV/Vita TV.



Pyro as Bill on 03 August 2020
d21lewis said:
Pemalite said:

The PC most certainly does have generations... And is also in lockstep with technological progress.

For example the PC's equivalent "7th gen" hardware was basically any Shader Model 2.0-3.0 rig DX9 rig... And SM4.0 hardware basically took those same games but with a plethora of further enhancements.

The Wii U certainly did compete with the Xbox One and Playstation 4, but it's hardware feature set was certainly 7th gen.
We can have older/technically inferior consoles compete with newer ones... It happened all the time.

The Super Nintendo existed from 1992 until 1998 here and the Playstation 1 burst onto the scene in 1994. - Yet, despite the PS1 sharing a big chunk of it's competitive life with the SNES, it was considered a generation newer, likely due to it's hardware feature set.

I would still consider it 8th gen due to it's technical underpinnings being based in 2015.

It would basically be a PSTV/Vita TV.

What gen did PSVita belong to?



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

Alistair on 04 August 2020

LethalP is absolutely right. Switch is a continuation of Nintendo's portable legacy, and has nothing to do with Xbox and PS. It does compete for gaming time, but isn't the same class of hardware. It's not a home console, just because you can hook up your laptop or tablet to a monitor doesn't make it a desktop. Hardware is roughly defined by its power consumption or mobility. Switch is mobile, so not a home console. Uses 10W chips, so isn't a home console. (you can hook up a Gameboy, Gameboy Advance, and Vita using a dock, but they are still mobile systems, not home consoles either).

The Switch launched with a $10 CPU. The GPU is LITERALLY half a Maxwell GTX 750, with half the memory bus, with half the memory speed (uses normal DDR instead of GDDR) and runs at half the clock speed at best while docked. It is 1/8 the speed of a $100 introductory GPU from 2014. NO it is not a home console. Not hard. People just get mad when you point out the obvious. If Apple made a dock for the iPad it wouldn't be a home console either.

It's just the Switch, a portable system. Nothing to do with Sony or Microsoft. Hopefully Nintendo is at work on a new home console. They have the support to make one. Get 8x Hercules CPU cores (releasing next March) and a cut down RTX 3060 (also releasing next March) and stick it in a $300 console for winter 2021. That would be ideal. That's roughly what the nVidia Orin uses anyways (the next nVidia Tegra chip coming out next year).

Last edited by Alistair - on 04 August 2020

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The_Liquid_Laser on 04 August 2020
JWeinCom said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

I'm thinking that what our disagreement comes down to is which systems actually compete.  I very much think the Wii U competed with PS4 and XB1.  That is a big reason why it sold so poorly.  Also, the 3DS and Vita definitely competed.  That is why the Vita did so poorly. 

What generations don't do is determine who will win, which is something you've been pointing out in your post. Maybe that is why you don't think they are meaningful.  They don't tell which system will win, but they do tell which systems are competing. 

Of course, we don't seem to be able to agree on which systems are competing.  We are probably talking past each other, because we don't even agree on which systems are competing.

Yes... the Vita and the 3DS competed... and by looking at the factors we could have predicted how the competition would look.  Same with the Wii U and PS4/One. Looking at price points/features/ and specs we can actually predict how one system will impact the other. 

I figured that was the point... to actually make meaningful predictions about the market. If your point is just to predict which consoles will be "competing" in some sense, that strikes me as profoundly useless. As someone who worked in gaming retail, I can tell you that people with next to zero knowledge about the gaming industry and no concept of generations figured out which systems were competing easily and without conducting anything resembling a scientific study.

Products compete when they're similar. That's about as simple as it gets. We could talk about exactly which factors are similar, but if you want a one word explanation, there it is; similarity. Saying that they're competing because "they're in the same generation" is not actually any simpler, because it requires creating an unnecessary term, and worse, nobody really seems to agree on what that term means.

And similarity actually explains why consoles would compete. If we assume people buy a product because they want it for some particular use, then it's basic common sense that a potential customer will choose between products that have that functionality. On the other hand, there's no logical reason to expect that two products would compete just because they were launched a certain amount of time after a predecessor. 

To give one clear example of why this concept is pretty much useless, let's say, hypothetically that next march, exactly four years after the Switch's release date, Nintendo releases a new system that is more powerful than either the PS5 or XBox SX, is still a hybrid with roughly the same size as the Switch, has identical third party support to the PS5/XBox X, and costs 100 dollars.

If, generation, as you define it, is the relevant factor, then this would be a gen 10 system by your logic, and would not compete with PS5 and XBox SX or hurt their sales. Is that what you think would happen?

Let me be clear and specific then, and also bring this back to the topic of the thread.  Here is my hypothesis and prediction for our current situation.

Hypothesis: Switch is a Generation 9 console that is competing with PS5 and Series X.
Prediction: PS5+Series X lifetime sales will be at least 30% lower than PS4+XB1 sales.

Since Switch is obviously very successful, it should take sales away from Playstation and XBox if they are competing.  If it doesn't, then they aren't competing.

Do you agree with my prediction?  Do you think it will come true?  If you disagree, then it is a meaningful prediction.  My hypothesis is predicting something that all of your analysis is not.  On the other hand, if you agree, then we'll have to go back to debating Occam's Razor.  So do you agree or disagree?



curl-6 bet me that PS5 + X|S sales would reach 56m before year end 2023 and he was right.
My Bet With curl-6

My Threads:
Master Thread, Game of the Year/Decade
Switch Will Be #1 All Time
Zelda Will Outsell Mario (Achieved)
How Much Will MH Rise sell?
My Bet With Metallox

160rmf on 04 August 2020
Pyro as Bill said:
160rmf said:
Yeah, guys. Keep coming with these arbitrary labeling and have a huge messed timeline. You are all so right

There's no confusion.

Wii is 6th gen like GC because there wasn't a huge power leap so PS2 lost the 6th gen in the US.

WiiU was a power leap so it's 7th gen like PS3/X360 but Switch is 7th gen too because no power leap therefore ''GC'' sold 123m and ''WiiU'' will sell ~160m.

Totally, it's all Cristal clear now. Let's see how long Nintendo will keep with 7th gen or 8th gen or whatever gen that is not the 9th, because no 3d audio of course



 

 

We reap what we sow

JWeinCom on 04 August 2020
The_Liquid_Laser said:
JWeinCom said:

Yes... the Vita and the 3DS competed... and by looking at the factors we could have predicted how the competition would look.  Same with the Wii U and PS4/One. Looking at price points/features/ and specs we can actually predict how one system will impact the other. 

I figured that was the point... to actually make meaningful predictions about the market. If your point is just to predict which consoles will be "competing" in some sense, that strikes me as profoundly useless. As someone who worked in gaming retail, I can tell you that people with next to zero knowledge about the gaming industry and no concept of generations figured out which systems were competing easily and without conducting anything resembling a scientific study.

Products compete when they're similar. That's about as simple as it gets. We could talk about exactly which factors are similar, but if you want a one word explanation, there it is; similarity. Saying that they're competing because "they're in the same generation" is not actually any simpler, because it requires creating an unnecessary term, and worse, nobody really seems to agree on what that term means.

And similarity actually explains why consoles would compete. If we assume people buy a product because they want it for some particular use, then it's basic common sense that a potential customer will choose between products that have that functionality. On the other hand, there's no logical reason to expect that two products would compete just because they were launched a certain amount of time after a predecessor. 

To give one clear example of why this concept is pretty much useless, let's say, hypothetically that next march, exactly four years after the Switch's release date, Nintendo releases a new system that is more powerful than either the PS5 or XBox SX, is still a hybrid with roughly the same size as the Switch, has identical third party support to the PS5/XBox X, and costs 100 dollars.

If, generation, as you define it, is the relevant factor, then this would be a gen 10 system by your logic, and would not compete with PS5 and XBox SX or hurt their sales. Is that what you think would happen?

Let me be clear and specific then, and also bring this back to the topic of the thread.  Here is my hypothesis and prediction for our current situation.

Hypothesis: Switch is a Generation 9 console that is competing with PS5 and Series X.
Prediction: PS5+Series X lifetime sales will be at least 30% lower than PS4+XB1 sales.

Since Switch is obviously very successful, it should take sales away from Playstation and XBox if they are competing.  If it doesn't, then they aren't competing.

Do you agree with my prediction?  Do you think it will come true?  If you disagree, then it is a meaningful prediction.  My hypothesis is predicting something that all of your analysis is not.  On the other hand, if you agree, then we'll have to go back to debating Occam's Razor.  So do you agree or disagree?

Gotta be honest, it's a little vexing that you refused to address the hypo which is designed to point out the flaw...

I agree with your hypothesis in so far as the Switch will compete with the PS5 and XBox One X. I think that's a pretty trivial prediction. All three companies want you to buy their gaming machine. So, yeah they're going to compete.

What generation the Switch is not a hypothesis, it's a label you're applying, and a useless one. We can call the Switch a generation 8 system, and it can still compete with the XBoxSX and PS5. Or, we could not worry about generations at all, and they'll still compete. 

We know from mountains of experience that similar products will compete in the market. Similarity is a perfectly adequate (actually, superior) way to explain competition. Why then should we violate Occam's Razor by adding a new and ill-defined concept?

As for your prediction, I have no idea. I know too little about price points, libraries, what other companies like Google or Apple may do going forward, and other factors that may influence sales. And it really has nothing to do with generations. Console sales can fluctuate based on a variety of factors. I can believe the Switch will compete with the PS5 and XBox One, and believe that the sales of the XBox One and PS5 will go up. Or I can believe Switch is not going to compete with them, and sales will still go down. 

If sales of PS5/Series X is your "test", then that test doesn't actually address your variable. That "test" would only work if decreased sales could only be explained by the Switch competing or not competing, which is obviously not the case. By your definitions, the Wii U was a generation 8 console, it competed with the XBox One and PS4, but sales of those systems remained constant with Gen 6. So, I'm genuinely confused why a drop in XBoxX and PS5 sales would have any bearing on what generation the Switch is.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 04 August 2020

160rmf on 04 August 2020

If by next year Apple comes with a console that triumphs PS5/XSeX on specs 5x times, have visuals effects that make a considerable leap over the next gen consoles and a 4D VR helmet (yeah, 4D! You can feel the smell in game)... I wonder... Will we enter in 10th gen by 2021?



 

 

We reap what we sow

LethalP on 05 August 2020
Pemalite said:

The PC most certainly does have generations... And is also in lockstep with technological progress.

For example the PC's equivalent "7th gen" hardware was basically any Shader Model 2.0-3.0 rig DX9 rig... And SM4.0 hardware basically took those same games but with a plethora of further enhancements.

It has generations of CPU and GPU that are completely seperate to what is meant by console generations. It's true that every few years the PC gets a fundamental upgrade in hardware in the form of a new shader model or DirectX feature set, but a console generation represents an order of magnitde increase in tech across the board, which then moves the industry forward as they become the new lowest common denominator for third party development. Which is why I said it affects PC positively because third party ports end up looking even better, and Switch negatively because it's a different class of hardware altogether and can hardly run a gen 8 multiplat let alone a gen 9 one. Just semantics really.