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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
pikashoe said: snip

Make it inside a spoiler tag since almost all you posted is spoiler.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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LudicrousSpeed said:
I can’t tell if the outrage is because of the inclusion and woke culture or people just disappointed in the horrible narrative.

Considering the game have 7k reviews on PSN with average 4,5/5 versus 50k reviews on metacritic with average 3,9/10 I would say it is mostly column A.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

That ending. Holy fucking shit... I just can't....

Spoiler!
She gets a change of heart when she was about to kill Abby?? Meanwhile the amount of people she has killed just to get to that point never even made her realize what's going on? LMAO! BRAVO DRUCKMANN!

Also, I hate Dina. She's just so flat and boring. That pregnancy reveal bullshit was downright hilarious. That shit came out of the left field.

Abby... I just can't connect to her. She is just flat out deranged. Not even the parts where there seems to be some sort of "human" side to her makes me feel anything.

I don't know how anyone can defend the writing in this game. This is just really fucking bad. This is what I think the story should have been.

Spoiler!
The last flash back with Joel was a powerful one. It should have been the core story of the game. Joel getting that one forgiveness that truly matters to him. Disregarding everyone else, Joel truly robbed Ellie of a purpose. That could have been a more interesting take into this matter that could continue on with what TLOU1 has left us.

I wasn't mad that Joel died in this game. In fact I believe that he should be killed off to put a proper ending to this series. It makes sense from a karma point of view. What he did will have consequences and will eventually catch onto him. However, what Druckmann did was a huge kick in the nuts and a disrespect to the beloved character. If he thought people were just going to get shocked by that, he definitely misjudged that.

This shit is really all over the place. The signs were there in Uncharted 4. The writing was a tad stupid in that game. But it was nowhere near this level.

Now onto the topic at hand, I think Neil Druckmann put his political correct agendas first before crafting an actual good story. The sexuality of the characters are not so important. If he crafted a game with these characters and delivered a really good story, I don't fucking mind. More power to them. But this thing, it goes way beyond the actual game and how he behaves on social media and such. So yes, I agree that his agendas affected the quality of ND games in negative way.

Last edited by iron_megalith - on 22 June 2020

LuccaCardoso1 said:

I went into this thread expecting the OP to be written by a far-right member of the forums, and there it is. I don't know if you can call yourself an advocate for minimal government interference when you are defending the Bolsonaro government left and right, currently one of the least democratic world leaders in power. But well, here you are.

It's amazing how easy people get triggered by just seeing a character with a personality different than the decades-old clichés that we see everywhere. If your character "role" wouldn't fit in a Super Mario game, then it's the gay black trans queer SJW agenda destroying the video game industry. It makes absolutely no sense how the portrayal of minorities would damage the quality of THE GAMEPLAY. If Ellie was a man, with the exact same gameplay and story, no one would be complaining.

First part of this post is off-topic and unnecessary.



Conservatives are now in their "well OK you can exist, just sit in the corner and don't be too loud about it because people too different from me make me uncomfortable" phase, a step up from the "you can't exist without being full on subjugated" phase which they know they can't justify any longer since its not the 1960s or even 1980s anymore. 



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Just a reminder. This thread is to discuss the perceived politics of ND and its effects on game development not to antagonize other users, groups, parties, etc. Please keep civil and discuss Naughty Dog games.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
Just a reminder. This thread is to discuss the perceived politics of ND and its effects on game development not to antagonize other users, groups, parties, etc. Please keep civil and discuss Naughty Dog games.

Exactly. I'm saying that inclusion is not a matter of politics but a natural progression of storytelling in the modern world and that including gay/trans characters to a narrative shouldn't be seen as a political statement. Because, you know, it's not. 

But you and others are saying it is. That's the problem here. Having queer characters in a game shouldn't be some point of contention, it should be a perfectly viable, and normal way to tell stories. That's how we remove the stigma associated with it, by normalizing it. The arguments I'm contesting are the ones that maintain the status quo by acting like literally any inclusion of queer characters is some SJW agenda and should be treated as a political issue. To make matters worse, just like @Soundwave said, the talking points around the issue have shifted becuase it's agreed on a widespread level that you can't just say 'get the gays out of our game' anymore, so now people are twisting these points and these stories so that they can justify their bigotry by claiming it's 'bad writing' or 'hamfisted character inclusion' when it's no worse than straight male inclusion. It's just another character archetype, not a goddamn political statement.

I have yet to see an ACTUAL argument about the game's story that didn't circle back to 'b-b-b-but my sensibilities! SJW propaganda!' Many try to avoid it, but it's not hard to read between the lines. 

Personally, I absolutely hate The Last of Us, but it's not for the story/writing. I always found the gameplay to be boring and mundane and frustrating. I always found that the gameplay only ever existed to perpetuate the plot...but I always felt the plot was outstandingly well-written and well-presented. the game's visuals, audio, and storytelling elements were all top-of-class and I acknowledged that while also not liking the games becuase I care more about gameplay than the other elements in a game. People forgave the bland and lacklustre gameplay elements becuase the story and character work was so good. but now? Now that Ellie's sexuality and various other progressive inclusions are a part of the story, suddenly everyone hates their writing? 

Naw, I don't buy it. I've experienced the modern political climate long enough to not trust that. I've been on the internet long enough that I have no doubt in my mind that this assault on The Last of Us Part II has nothing to do with the actual writing/storytelling and almost everything to do with the perceived SJW agenda of the development team. This fan hatred is nothing more than thinly veiled bigotry masquerading as legitimate criticism. 

Again, if you and others could accept that this is truly about your discomfort and resistance of progress, then maybe we could have a productive discussion about it. But instead of actually explaining yourself, you're just playing the victim to try and get sympathy points while calling me a meanie for expecting you to be held accountable for your regressive beliefs all while being purposefully disingenuous about your opinions on the matter and attempting to justify the backlash. It's not helpful. If you don't like the game, don't play it. If you don't agree with the direction of the story, don't watch a playthrough of it. but for the love of progress, please don't try to hold the rest of us back with your regressive views and play the victim when you're called out on it. 

**Edit** I got DonFerrari and EnricoPallazoo mixed up. My bad. Assume all my points in this post were directed at Enrico, not DonFerrari. I am unsure of DonFerrari's stance on the matter. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

shikamaru317 said:

There is a good way to have diversity and inclusiveness and a bad way to have it. When things are done the right way, barely anybody complains. 

General rules for the good and the bad:

Good Diversity

  • Settings where it makes sense
  • Good character development for minority characters
  • Don't make inclusiveness focus of your marketing or brag about it how you have it

Bad Diversity

  • Shoehorning diversity into settings where it doesn't make sense
  • Changing the races of established characters just so you can have a minority character
  • Bragging about your diverse cast
  • Adding minority characters just for the brownie points, then giving them crappy character development

Not that I fully agree with these rules but I don't understand why they would be rules for minority characters specifically and not characters period? Things like settings and character development are equally important for white males.



Runa216 said:
DonFerrari said:
Just a reminder. This thread is to discuss the perceived politics of ND and its effects on game development not to antagonize other users, groups, parties, etc. Please keep civil and discuss Naughty Dog games.

Exactly. I'm saying that inclusion is not a matter of politics but a natural progression of storytelling in the modern world and that including gay/trans characters to a narrative shouldn't be seen as a political statement. Because, you know, it's not. 

But you and others are saying it is. That's the problem here. Having queer characters in a game shouldn't be some point of contention, it should be a perfectly viable, and normal way to tell stories. That's how we remove the stigma associated with it, by normalizing it. The arguments I'm contesting are the ones that maintain the status quo by acting like literally any inclusion of queer characters is some SJW agenda and should be treated as a political issue. To make matters worse, just like @Soundwave said, the talking points around the issue have shifted becuase it's agreed on a widespread level that you can't just say 'get the gays out of our game' anymore, so now people are twisting these points and these stories so that they can justify their bigotry by claiming it's 'bad writing' or 'hamfisted character inclusion' when it's no worse than straight male inclusion. It's just another character archetype, not a goddamn political statement.

I have yet to see an ACTUAL argument about the game's story that didn't circle back to 'b-b-b-but my sensibilities! SJW propaganda!' Many try to avoid it, but it's not hard to read between the lines. 

Personally, I absolutely hate The Last of Us, but it's not for the story/writing. I always found the gameplay to be boring and mundane and frustrating. I always found that the gameplay only ever existed to perpetuate the plot...but I always felt the plot was outstandingly well-written and well-presented. the game's visuals, audio, and storytelling elements were all top-of-class and I acknowledged that while also not liking the games becuase I care more about gameplay than the other elements in a game. People forgave the bland and lacklustre gameplay elements becuase the story and character work was so good. but now? Now that Ellie's sexuality and various other progressive inclusions are a part of the story, suddenly everyone hates their writing? 

Naw, I don't buy it. I've experienced the modern political climate long enough to not trust that. I've been on the internet long enough that I have no doubt in my mind that this assault on The Last of Us Part II has nothing to do with the actual writing/storytelling and almost everything to do with the perceived SJW agenda of the development team. This fan hatred is nothing more than thinly veiled bigotry masquerading as legitimate criticism. 

Again, if you and others could accept that this is truly about your discomfort and resistance of progress, then maybe we could have a productive discussion about it. But instead of actually explaining yourself, you're just playing the victim to try and get sympathy points while calling me a meanie for expecting you to be held accountable for your regressive beliefs all while being purposefully disingenuous about your opinions on the matter and attempting to justify the backlash. It's not helpful. If you don't like the game, don't play it. If you don't agree with the direction of the story, don't watch a playthrough of it. but for the love of progress, please don't try to hold the rest of us back with your regressive views and play the victim when you're called out on it. 

**Edit** I got DonFerrari and EnricoPallazoo mixed up. My bad. Assume all my points in this post were directed at Enrico, not DonFerrari. I am unsure of DonFerrari's stance on the matter. 

My stance on the matter is that government shouldn`t mix on your personal life so sexuality is totally not political subject for me. You should be able to marry anyone you want that isn`t a minor or mentally challenged if that person agrees.

On gaming diversity can be political (because devs are made of people and thus they also have their political views), but yep having diversity on a game isn`t necessarily a political thing. In some cases it needs to have a very diverse cast (like if you are representing a current NYC for example), in other cases it make very little sense (like feudal japan having a female transgender gay black samurai, yes I exaggerated in purpose just to show that it would make very little sense unless it involved time travelling) in most other cases it is really neutral can be good or bad depending on how the game is made (so basically nothing to do with diversity). So if a game is forced in a way to have diversity it may have bad outcome (or at least be a product I don`t like). Most of my view is on the OP and I don`t think ND changing their way is necessarily bad.

shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

Considering the game have 7k reviews on PSN with average 4,5/5 versus 50k reviews on metacritic with average 3,9/10 I would say it is mostly column A.

Don't forget that you need to own the game to rate it on PSN. I've seen quite alot of people on twitter and such saying they weren't buying it because they saw the plot leaks and didn't want to play it after that. I'm sure that alot of the Metacritic user reviews are from those who didn't buy it because they were made about the plot. There is too much negativity there for it to be mainly from the anti-woke crowd, especially since many of the most upvoted negative user reviews mention how bad the plot is, some in great detail. 

That much is true.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

I don't agree with that. They just were never that good to begin with in terms of storytelling. I actually don't understand how people can say Uncharted 1-3 are perfect, but 4 sucks, and worst of all, citing Nadine as one of the problems. Because she beats up pretty boy Nathan? That's the biggest problem with that game? That's BS. That whole game is a trainwreck. I think people only started picking flaws on ND games because the games introduced things those people don't want to see (like minorities). Let's be honest, Uncharted 2 was not that good. The story was stupid and the game itself, while polished, was a basic third person cover/shooter, the only reason people are complaing now, is because the games are not pandering to them anymore.