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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
Lonely_Dolphin said:
Alara317 said:

the reason I (and many others) haven't taken the time to meticulously craft out lengthy explanations on why you're wrong is that sometimes we know when a person is a lost cause.

Yet you're still willing to reply to me, so clearly an invalid excuse. You don't want to discuss because you can't handle differing opinions, that's the real reason.

Everyone can see I engaged in a discussion with the-pi-guy even though I didn't agree with everything he said. Everyone can see you ignored my attempt to discuss even though you said things I didn't like the sound of. Based on these facts, one can only come to the conclusion that I am in fact willing to discuss and you are not. That isn't me just saying nuh uh and no you, that's me using logic and evidence, something I wish you would do.

Your only basis for going on this pointless butthurt tangent is a vague "but your post history!" Ok, what about it? Once again you need to explain and provide examples of supposed ignorance n bigotry rather than expecting everyone to just immediately agree with you.

"I want you to not be ignorant and bigoted." You really believe calling people ignorant n bigoted with zero explanation is an effective way to get them to stop, let alone even realize that they are ignorant n bigoted? Surely you know that ignorant means lacking information, so anything less than providing said information is going to do absolutely nothing to help your cause.

With your "I bet you're the kind of person" spiel, basically calling me a racist nazi, you've solidified your irrationality. I suspected as much as early as your first post, yet I still tried to get information from ya. You wanna act holier than thou but I'm the more tolerant and reasonable one here. It's pretty clear we're only having this conversation because my opinions upset you. You have no interest in learning my side nor even explaining yours, all you're doing here is trying to insult and discredit me, "he's a bigot so everything he says is automatically invalid and wrong!"

Unfortunately there's a lot of people like you, but fortunately we're on the internet so I can very easily ignore if need be, but for now I still find you entertaining enough, your logic or rather lack thereof is fascinating. "I'll stop ignorance by not informing people!" haha.

You ever thought maybe she's ignoring you because she doesn't want to engage with someone who clearly has no interest in having a mature conversation? I mean, they say don't argue with a fool, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

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Hiku said:

The mod team is currently looking over and discussing some posts here, but that will take a while.
Though in the meantime there are two points in your post I want to address.

First, if @Alara317 could chime in on Dolphin's claim here that he didn't say any of those things, and whether that's accurate or not, that would be helpful context. If the person claimimg that the other person said something they deny is correct, that means there is evidence of this in the form of an older post that you can link to. (And don't worry about the possibility of them editing it out of their post afterwards to cover their tracks. We can see all edit history of a post.) If you don't have such a link, or can't/don't want to find it, I suggest bookmarking posts from now on if you think it's something you may bring up in the future.

As for the bolded, Dolphin, it's not about believing that all lives matter, but the reason that phrase is used as a counter to Black Lives Matter.
Which is insinuating that BLM suggests that white lives matter less, or not at all. We've in fact had people on this forum thinking that was the case.

White supremacists, bigots, etc find these things important. Which makes this an important issue to anyone that doesn't want them getting their way.
And while they find these things important, they'll try to convince potential allies of LGBT/women, etc that it is not important, and to not be vigilant about it, and how it's actually a bad thing, because 'realism in videogames' etc, because everyone can relate to this. While their motives extend far beyond just entertainment.

However, there's more to representation than just combating bigotry, or even identifying with a character. I for example usually prefer female characters. But I don't identify as one. It's just my preference. What some people may not understand is why this matters to some people more than it does yourself. Because you're unable to relate to anyone's feelings, based on your own.
Someone that says 'I don't care if the main character is white or not' may say that because 90%+ of the characters they experience happen to be closer to their preference than otherwise. 
If 90% of the characters were instead black with an afro haircut, and this is an aesthetic they don't usually find pleasing, then they may understand why some people would like to see their characters some times look different.

While it should be the claimant who provides proof, I'll go ahead and link to the aforementioned conversation I had about BLM. Only took a few minutes going through my post history to find it.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179382

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179507

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9184422

Again, don't care about the name, but I'll just say that they shouldn't be leaving it up to interpretation by not calling it "Black Lives Matter Too."

Also, how does a racist/sexist/etc. convince people that race/sex/etc. doesn't matter? You can't be a racist/sexist/etc. without putting intrinsic value on race/sex/etc. I don't have to care about identity to know it's foolish to love or hate people based on their identity. 



Lonely_Dolphin said:
Hiku said:

The mod team is currently looking over and discussing some posts here, but that will take a while.
Though in the meantime there are two points in your post I want to address.

First, if @Alara317 could chime in on Dolphin's claim here that he didn't say any of those things, and whether that's accurate or not, that would be helpful context. If the person claimimg that the other person said something they deny is correct, that means there is evidence of this in the form of an older post that you can link to. (And don't worry about the possibility of them editing it out of their post afterwards to cover their tracks. We can see all edit history of a post.) If you don't have such a link, or can't/don't want to find it, I suggest bookmarking posts from now on if you think it's something you may bring up in the future.

As for the bolded, Dolphin, it's not about believing that all lives matter, but the reason that phrase is used as a counter to Black Lives Matter.
Which is insinuating that BLM suggests that white lives matter less, or not at all. We've in fact had people on this forum thinking that was the case.

White supremacists, bigots, etc find these things important. Which makes this an important issue to anyone that doesn't want them getting their way.
And while they find these things important, they'll try to convince potential allies of LGBT/women, etc that it is not important, and to not be vigilant about it, and how it's actually a bad thing, because 'realism in videogames' etc, because everyone can relate to this. While their motives extend far beyond just entertainment.

However, there's more to representation than just combating bigotry, or even identifying with a character. I for example usually prefer female characters. But I don't identify as one. It's just my preference. What some people may not understand is why this matters to some people more than it does yourself. Because you're unable to relate to anyone's feelings, based on your own.
Someone that says 'I don't care if the main character is white or not' may say that because 90%+ of the characters they experience happen to be closer to their preference than otherwise. 
If 90% of the characters were instead black with an afro haircut, and this is an aesthetic they don't usually find pleasing, then they may understand why some people would like to see their characters some times look different.

While it should be the claimant who provides proof, I'll go ahead and link to the aforementioned conversation I had about BLM. Only took a few minutes going through my post history to find it.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179382

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179507

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9184422

Again, don't care about the name, but I'll just say that they shouldn't be leaving it up to interpretation by not calling it "Black Lives Matter Too."

Also, how does a racist/sexist/etc. convince people that race/sex/etc. doesn't matter? You can't be a racist/sexist/etc. without putting intrinsic value on race/sex/etc. I don't have to care about identity to know it's foolish to love or hate people based on their identity. 

I really don't think you're helping your cause. And regardless of how things pan out, it's easy to get your messages mixed up since you seem to adhere to so many terrible, anti-progress beliefs that tend to line up pretty handily with white supremacists. You might not be one (I have no fucking idea what you believe, I just know I don't particularly like you based off what I've read), but when your talking points are the same talking points of the KKK in the midst of a race-based conflict across the country, you might wanna reevaluate. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Hiku said:

Thanks for the links. Much appreciated.

As for the question, I was referring to people saying one thing in private, and something else in public.
Some times private conversations leak and reveal that yes, those things that sounded very bigoted but the person swore weren't, in fact were.
Though most of the time people are not that careless, so it's up to everyone to look for red flags in consistent behavior.

But to everyone here, try to avoid pointing out how much you may dislike another user. Unless that person did something particularly egregious, it will end up looking like flaming on your part, and you may no longer be able to post in the thread.

Bigotry has a very clear definition, so don't know how something just sounds like it, it either is or isn't. Even if I were to say "Haha tricked yal I am a bigot!" that doesn't make anything I said prior suddenly become bigoted if it wasn't already. But how can you even go off of private conversations if you haven't seen them? Runa and Alara have not seen mine that's for sure. Also, if they're having to keep their bigotry private, that should be good enough. Not acting on their beliefs in public has to be good enough because it's simply impossible to clear the world of wrong think, so this is the best we can hope for.



Hiku said:

I think you understand the concept of disingenuous framing, dog whistles, thinly veiled bigotry, etc, to achieve the same goal.

This sounds similar to your argument that we shouldn't consider someone trolling unless we can prove it/they confess, etc, which as I said before would make life very easy for people that skirt the rules.
Either way I'm not interested in debating those things today. Maybe some day.

I wasn't talking about your private conversations. But that it happens at times, and people see what kind of language and talking points are used in public, and what it actually means/what they want to achieve when they think it'll remain private. So people learn what red flags to look for.

And I'm referring to people that are acting on their beliefs in public, but chose their words more carefully.

Anyway, aside from the things pertaining to the moderator business I mentioned, I feel like this is derailing the thread, so I won't be replying to any more questions about this here. Let's consider this discussion over, and get back to where you guys were before.

I don't believe you believe what you're saying here. If you don't need evidence or care about what the accused has to say, why didn't you immediately side with Alara n Runa and just ban me? If you're really just acting on pure biased emotions that would be the thing to do, no need for discussions then since what could you even be discussing if not facts and proof or the lack thereof.

I'm using myself as counterexample, seeing as I've just been accused of acting on my bigotry in public, and I'm assuming by people who learn what it "actually means" (a.k.a. what I feel like it means) you mean people like Runa and Alara. I don't doubt that it happens for real, but false accusations of bigotry by people like them who believe whatever they feel like regardless of reality are far more common than real accounts of bigotry in my experience.

Of course people can be disingenuous while preaching that what they do is for the greater good, but here's how I determine this.

First, when asked to explain/provide evidence/etc. do they do so? Example: Alara accusing me of bigotry and saying there are loud aggressive bigots, zero evidence provided.

Second, if they do give an explanation, does it make sense? Example: Alara claimed that being "passive" doesn't stop bigots, implying that being aggressive does work, even after it clearly didn't work. 

If your intentions are true then you should be eager to discuss, if what you claim is reality, eager to show the evidence. That's obviously not the case here, the only intention was to flame. When you believe my literal anti-bigotry ideas are somehow bigotry, it's clear they don't give a shit at all about progress and equality. You don't have to like me or what I'm saying to understand the simple fact that if no one cared about race/sex/etc. then there would be no racist/sexist/etc. Granted people will always make up arbitrary reasons to hate each other, but I digress.

This type of discussion is literally where we were even before Alara came at me but ok lol.



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Lonely_Dolphin said:
Hiku said:

I think you understand the concept of disingenuous framing, dog whistles, thinly veiled bigotry, etc, to achieve the same goal.

This sounds similar to your argument that we shouldn't consider someone trolling unless we can prove it/they confess, etc, which as I said before would make life very easy for people that skirt the rules.
Either way I'm not interested in debating those things today. Maybe some day.

I wasn't talking about your private conversations. But that it happens at times, and people see what kind of language and talking points are used in public, and what it actually means/what they want to achieve when they think it'll remain private. So people learn what red flags to look for.

And I'm referring to people that are acting on their beliefs in public, but chose their words more carefully.

Anyway, aside from the things pertaining to the moderator business I mentioned, I feel like this is derailing the thread, so I won't be replying to any more questions about this here. Let's consider this discussion over, and get back to where you guys were before.

I don't believe you believe what you're saying here. If you don't need evidence or care about what the accused has to say, why didn't you immediately side with Alara n Runa and just ban me? If you're really just acting on pure biased emotions that would be the thing to do, no need for discussions then since what could you even be discussing if not facts and proof or the lack thereof.

I'm using myself as counterexample, seeing as I've just been accused of acting on my bigotry in public, and I'm assuming by people who learn what it "actually means" (a.k.a. what I feel like it means) you mean people like Runa and Alara. I don't doubt that it happens for real, but false accusations of bigotry by people like them who believe whatever they feel like regardless of reality are far more common than real accounts of bigotry in my experience.

Of course people can be disingenuous while preaching that what they do is for the greater good, but here's how I determine this.

First, when asked to explain/provide evidence/etc. do they do so? Example: Alara accusing me of bigotry and saying there are loud aggressive bigots, zero evidence provided.

Second, if they do give an explanation, does it make sense? Example: Alara claimed that being "passive" doesn't stop bigots, implying that being aggressive does work, even after it clearly didn't work. 

If your intentions are true then you should be eager to discuss, if what you claim is reality, eager to show the evidence. That's obviously not the case here, the only intention was to flame. When you believe my literal anti-bigotry ideas are somehow bigotry, it's clear they don't give a shit at all about progress and equality. You don't have to like me or what I'm saying to understand the simple fact that if no one cared about race/sex/etc. then there would be no racist/sexist/etc. Granted people will always make up arbitrary reasons to hate each other, but I digress.

This type of discussion is literally where we were even before Alara came at me but ok lol.

I really find it troublesome when someone judge the other by what they think they said instead of what they really said and without confirmation. The first week of training on the company I work there was a very good video and the message stick to me "when someone say something that can be interpreted in several ways give the benefit of doubt and use the least damaging one".



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

I really find it troublesome when someone judge the other by what they think they said instead of what they really said and without confirmation. The first week of training on the company I work there was a very good video and the message stick to me "when someone say something that can be interpreted in several ways give the benefit of doubt and use the least damaging one".

A great message and what I strive to do, hence why I didn't immediately call Alara (who we now know was Runa's alt, explains a lot lol) the racist heterophobe that his initial post could be seen as. As we've seen, there are people who think it's not only fair and just to jump to conclusions but also stand by them even after contradictory evidence and explanation has been provided. It's always good to be reminded that I'm not the only one who prioritizes logic over feels.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
DonFerrari said:

I really find it troublesome when someone judge the other by what they think they said instead of what they really said and without confirmation. The first week of training on the company I work there was a very good video and the message stick to me "when someone say something that can be interpreted in several ways give the benefit of doubt and use the least damaging one".

A great message and what I strive to do, hence why I didn't immediately call Alara (who we now know was Runa's alt, explains a lot lol) the racist heterophobe that his initial post could be seen as. As we've seen, there are people who think it's not only fair and just to jump to conclusions but also stand by them even after contradictory evidence and explanation has been provided. It's always good to be reminded that I'm not the only one who prioritizes logic over feels.

I have run into many people in VGC that thinks their interpretation of what you said is evidence and true even when you explain what you said they will keep the version they want. It is really odd.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

EnricoPallazzo said:

ND for me is a good representation of why the left destroys everything it touches. There is a strong need in not create something new, but always destroy what is already established and people love so from the ashes of it something "better" can flourish. If TLOU2 is the direction modern games are going, then unfortunately I believe it's not for me, thank God we still have Japan and I still have a huge backlog of games to play.


Since U4 ND has been showing why people hate forced diversity in games, starting with Nadine, then the girl power in Lost Legacy and now the climax with TLOU2. The sex scene of Abby which was basically gross. I dont even know if she is really a woman anymore since its clear she has no boobs, maybe those scenes with her as a kid she was a boy, just as Lev was a girl. So that scene would be basically anal sex. But it's all right, it's a left leaning game so they have a free pass to do whatever they want. And everything in the game is forced and it's all against the evil white male. I'm black btw. Well, half black.


I wont play or buy this game, and probably won't be playing Naughty Dog games anymore as it is clear the same route will be used also in future uncharted games and their future IP's. Creating a great a fun game is not important anymore, the political message must come first.
And you know what? If most people think this is alright and like it, so be it.

I'm not supporting ND games, after Part II. It's not that I won't play them, but Part II is the last one I've preordered and I'm not gonna play their games full price or without reading about the story first.

If only I could get my money back.

shikamaru317 said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

ND for me is a good representation of why the left destroys everything it touches. There is a strong need in not create something new, but always destroy what is already established and people love so from the ashes of it something "better" can flourish. If TLOU2 is the direction modern games are going, then unfortunately I believe it's not for me, thank God we still have Japan and I still have a huge backlog of games to play.


Since U4 ND has been showing why people hate forced diversity in games, starting with Nadine, then the girl power in Lost Legacy and now the climax with TLOU2.

Spoiler!
The sex scene of Abby which was basically gross. I dont even know if she is really a woman anymore since its clear she has no boobs, maybe those scenes with her as a kid she was a boy, just as Lev was a girl. So that scene would be basically anal sex.

But it's all right, it's a left leaning game so they have a free pass to do whatever they want. And everything in the game is forced and it's all against the evil white male. I'm black btw. Well, half black.


I wont play or buy this game, and probably won't be playing Naughty Dog games anymore as it is clear the same route will be used also in future uncharted games and their future IP's. Creating a great a fun game is not important anymore, the political message must come first.
And you know what? If most people think this is alright and like it, so be it.

Yeah, that scene bothers the heck out of me too. Saw this on Twitter last night, and I 100% agree with it:

Spoiler!

Why is it that a realistic graphics, nude anal sex scene between a man and what seems to be a trans woman is acceptable to Sony, but Sony is censoring sexual content in Japanese games that isn't full nudity to begin with, even though the rating agencies like ESRB, CERO, and PEGI are totally ok with that content being in those games? 

It kinda makes sense.

John2290 said:

While I agree with people in this thread on forced diversity I'll just say ya'll need to take a step back, let the creators create what they want and the people decide if it's good or not. If you don't want to support it don't but it's a bad road to go down, I went hard against it all before everythig started looking like forced diversity, even the genuine stuff. If you can smell it, sure don't drop the money and back away but sometimes your sense of smell betrays you and you may miss a gem that had genuine intentions or not but it still worked. Gotta go on a case by case basis and close your wallet when needed.

But I think games like Part II today is exactly an example of products that aren't creators led. Books are totally led by creators. Games are more like Hollywood films. They've got a whole team specialised on PR and how politically correct the game should be. Lawyers, psychologists, all sorts of consultants have to go over the product before it comes out.

I doubt the woke things on Part II were the sole main writer creation.



God bless You.

My Total Sales prediction for PS4 by the end of 2021: 110m+

When PS4 will hit 100m consoles sold: Before Christmas 2019

There were three ravens sat on a tree / They were as blacke as they might be / The one of them said to his mate, Where shall we our breakfast take?


Dante9 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
I can’t tell if the outrage is because of the inclusion and woke culture or people just disappointed in the horrible narrative.

It's overwhelmingly about the narrative. Even if every character in the game were just plain ol' heterosexuals and there were no political agendas whatsoever to be found, the way the beloved characters are treated is just massively disappointing and off-putting, especially after seven years of waiting. The whole dynamic that made the first game so well liked is completely obliterated in the sequel. It's weird, like either Druckmann doesn't understand what made the first game tick, or that he somehow became so overwhelmed by having to improve upon the former perfection that he imploded and found no other recourse than to deconstruct the whole thing. Like he knew he couldn't top what he had done before, so he decided to piss in the pool before the fans got to it first.

Maybe the Last of Us is one of those things that should have been a one-off, no sequels needed.

The first one was a simple tale. Just perfect. The second got lost in unnecessary complexities, among other problems.

KLXVER said:
Dante9 said:

It's overwhelmingly about the narrative. Even if every character in the game were just plain ol' heterosexuals and there were no political agendas whatsoever to be found, the way the beloved characters are treated is just massively disappointing and off-putting, especially after seven years of waiting. The whole dynamic that made the first game so well liked is completely obliterated in the sequel. It's weird, like either Druckmann doesn't understand what made the first game tick, or that he somehow became so overwhelmed by having to improve upon the former perfection that he imploded and found no other recourse than to deconstruct the whole thing. Like he knew he couldn't top what he had done before, so he decided to piss in the pool before the fans got to it first.

Maybe the Last of Us is one of those things that should have been a one-off, no sequels needed.

How are they treated? You know they live in a world that isnt all sunshine and rainbows, right? Should they all get a heroic send-off or ride into the sunset and live happily ever after? 

I dont know. I like darker subject matters more than others I guess. I like it when things arent predictable or are tied up in a nice bow for me to feel all fuzzy inside. TLOU2 kept surprising me with the narrative. I know people will say that it was all made just to manipulate the feelings of the player. That may be true in some instances, but Im not sure why this is the game that broke the camels back on that. Thats usually what entertainment in general does. I just think people are being a bit harsh on this game. I think it was a breath of fresh air tbh. 

Part II is not dark, it's pure masochism. Revenge, revenge, revenge. There's nothing there for the sake of anyone. All destruction. Every character that is not dead had it's life destroyed. It's shocking for the sake of being shocking. It's the true definition of the word awful and disgusting.



God bless You.

My Total Sales prediction for PS4 by the end of 2021: 110m+

When PS4 will hit 100m consoles sold: Before Christmas 2019

There were three ravens sat on a tree / They were as blacke as they might be / The one of them said to his mate, Where shall we our breakfast take?