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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

DonFerrari said:

Thanks for all the valuable information as always.

Just wanted to put a small caveat. Although I agree that Console can have similar level of HW with mid or even high gen PCs for the first couple years but PC will always keep pushing higher while console stagnate I'll put the caveat that typically because of the nature of fixed HW and learning curve the consoles on the level of games and details the PC to have the same level of performance at the end of the gen isn't the same as on the start of the gen.

In saying that a Radeon 7850/7870 can run the same games as a Playstation 4/Xbox One for the most part with similar visuals. Some games will perform and look better, some will look and perform worst, really comes down to developer effort and competence.

It's when you start pushing those higher quality HBAO over SSAO, the higher tessellation factors, the higher quality Anti-Aliasing and start pushing 60fps with full 16x anisotropic filtering, ray tracing, superior shadowing and lighting that the hardware demands on PC start to skyrocket.

And sometimes a game engine level optimization on console even translates over to PC... And now that PC's have lower-level abstraction layers, the advantage consoles have for any given hardware has lessened.

Where the Playstation 4, Switch and Xbox One take a step ahead is with those exclusives, something like Horizon: Zero Dawn is technically impressive... Or Links Awakening with it's pretty awesome material shaders or Gears of War 5 with it's geometric complexity and post process pipeline.

And the PC has StarCitizen, which leverages the PC's abundant amounts of memory to create such sheer scale never before seen in a game.
It's the exclusives that make the hardware for every platform shine.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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sales2099 said:
Please jump in if I’m off because I am not a technical guy. My impression is that the Xbox ssd is slower but still competent at its job. Asset loading and general load times would just be seconds longer, no big deal.

Wouldn’t the PS5 ssd be hindered more overall in multiplat development due to common denominators like non ssd PC versions?

On multiplats really most of the difference shall be loading times and better textures for PS5 and more pixels or framerate stability for xbox. Unless we get a couple of devs that are harder worker and will put both consoles advantages to better use.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

Thanks for all the valuable information as always.

Just wanted to put a small caveat. Although I agree that Console can have similar level of HW with mid or even high gen PCs for the first couple years but PC will always keep pushing higher while console stagnate I'll put the caveat that typically because of the nature of fixed HW and learning curve the consoles on the level of games and details the PC to have the same level of performance at the end of the gen isn't the same as on the start of the gen.

In saying that a Radeon 7850/7870 can run the same games as a Playstation 4/Xbox One for the most part with similar visuals. Some games will perform and look better, some will look and perform worst, really comes down to developer effort and competence.

It's when you start pushing those higher quality HBAO over SSAO, the higher tessellation factors, the higher quality Anti-Aliasing and start pushing 60fps with full 16x anisotropic filtering, ray tracing, superior shadowing and lighting that the hardware demands on PC start to skyrocket.

And sometimes a game engine level optimization on console even translates over to PC... And now that PC's have lower-level abstraction layers, the advantage consoles have for any given hardware has lessened.

Where the Playstation 4, Switch and Xbox One take a step ahead is with those exclusives, something like Horizon: Zero Dawn is technically impressive... Or Links Awakening with it's pretty awesome material shaders or Gears of War 5 with it's geometric complexity and post process pipeline.

And the PC has StarCitizen, which leverages the PC's abundant amounts of memory to create such sheer scale never before seen in a game.
It's the exclusives that make the hardware for every platform shine.

Understood (more or less).

But putting on simpler terms. A PC that had HW at similar level of PS4 on launch (so basically playing the same games on similar resolution, framerate and graphical detail) would still put the end gen games of PS4 at the same basic parity?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

An MS exec that also admits he is clueless about game development and was just making up the only scenario he could think of: elevators. But sure, lets run with it because it fits your agenda. And you're yet to give any detail as to how the XSX is a traditional console. Both consoles went for SSD's and massively increased I/O. Sony just made their SSD faster, MS went with better hardware. Don't forget PS5 has boost mode to hit its 10TF, pretty common feature of PC's.


Oh man the showing must have been more disappointing for you than I could have imagined if you went from being so sure about how XSX is limited and lacking in comparison to PS5 to now "well we don't know how it compares". Also you're free to conclude whatever you want. But it is strange how it's apparently wrong for me to believe nothing Sony showed couldn't be on PS4 (even though I don't believe I ever said that) and makes me "salty" but it's perfectly ok for you to claim nothing MS has shown can't be done on current gen and a HDD fine. Seems you didn't read the part of my post about practicing what you preach :(

I mean you're the guy constantly claiming that for years and years after launch, XSX exclusives will be designed to run on "potato PC". Please don't try to talk down to me because I rated the Sony show a 7. Maybe you just have a different opinion on innovation. After all you're the one who called Infamous innovative because it was doing the same stuff the genre had been doing for years but just bigger and prettier. I did say the SSD stuff in Ratchet with jumping worlds had been done before. Obviously with the next gen specs it will be bigger and faster and prettier. You mentioned Far Cry. You brought up a possible gameplay scenario in HFW, I replied with how you could already do that in Just Cause 2. Obviously on next gen hardware it would be bigger, faster, prettier. Just not new.

Your definitions are shifting again, I can only assume it's from disappointment in what was shown. It's fine, games will get better as the gen rolls along.

We know this for a fact because except for Medium, everything Ms has shown will run on Xbox One as well. 

Isn't it normal that next gen consoles do kinda the same things as current gen, but bigger and better? If that's not enough than what are you seriously expecting? To me it seems you're constantly pretending you don't know what next gen games are traditionally about. A new console generations is not a completely new concept and we both know what it usually means.

MS is just trying to rewrite the rules. Instead of doing a hard reset, they are making sure everyone can play their games in the Xbox ecosystem. That's why nothing they've shown requires cutting edge hardware or a fast SSD, even if it is skipping current gen consoles. Take Dustborn for example that was just announced for Series X, ps5 and pc. Maybe I exaggerate when I say potato pc, but just look at the pc requirements and you'll see it doesn't require SSD or a high-end gpu: https://store.steampowered.com/app/721180/Dustborn/

If you weren't disappointed with what was shown at the Series X event, then fine. But maybe that's why you're telling yourself that the IO performance gap is no biggie and everything Sony showed would run on current gen too, let alone the Series X.

Truth is that we don't know how these consoles will compare until we see the games. Until then all we have is this MS exec talking about elevators and Epic saying the ps5's SSD tech is so impactful, they've rewritten their core I/O subsystems for UE5 with the ps5 in mind. Is the MS exec a complete idiot that doesn't know what he's talking about, did Sony spend a fortune on overdeveloping their SSD and pay Epic to say those things? Who knows, but MS really needs to show something really impressive on July if they want to change the "most powerful next gen console" narrative.

Oh so now it’s “everything would run fine on a HDD.. except this.” And “but this doesn’t require a ‘fast’ SSD”. Keep shifting those goal posts, friend. 

I don’t know or care what you think about what qualifies a game as next gen or not because your definition is constantly changing to suit whatever Sony is doing and furthermore you’re the only one who was making a big deal about cross gen and “real next gen games” anyway. 

What is the IO gap? How much does the XVA improve XSX?  Again you’re speaking factually about things right after claiming no one knows. Also yeah we can only judge the games. Neither has shown anything super impressive yet imho. The most impressive stuff was not gameplay for both, Hellblade II and HFW. But that doesn’t mean the games won’t be good. I was more impressed with games like Little Devil Inside and that K game and both of those are cross gen, your literal nightmare. Funny how that works.

Cant wait to see your definitions change again after the July and August events.



chakkra said:
goopy20 said:

Isn't it normal that next gen consoles do kinda the same things as current gen, but bigger and better? If that's not enough than what are you seriously expecting? To me it seems you're constantly pretending you don't know what next gen games are traditionally about. A new console generations is not a completely new concept and we both know what it usually means.

Dude, you have spent MONTHS claiming the exact opposite of that statement.

Yes he has lol. But no, others are the ones pretending to change their narrative apparently.



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LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy20 said:

We know this for a fact because except for Medium, everything Ms has shown will run on Xbox One as well. 

Isn't it normal that next gen consoles do kinda the same things as current gen, but bigger and better? If that's not enough than what are you seriously expecting? To me it seems you're constantly pretending you don't know what next gen games are traditionally about. A new console generations is not a completely new concept and we both know what it usually means.

MS is just trying to rewrite the rules. Instead of doing a hard reset, they are making sure everyone can play their games in the Xbox ecosystem. That's why nothing they've shown requires cutting edge hardware or a fast SSD, even if it is skipping current gen consoles. Take Dustborn for example that was just announced for Series X, ps5 and pc. Maybe I exaggerate when I say potato pc, but just look at the pc requirements and you'll see it doesn't require SSD or a high-end gpu: https://store.steampowered.com/app/721180/Dustborn/

If you weren't disappointed with what was shown at the Series X event, then fine. But maybe that's why you're telling yourself that the IO performance gap is no biggie and everything Sony showed would run on current gen too, let alone the Series X.

Truth is that we don't know how these consoles will compare until we see the games. Until then all we have is this MS exec talking about elevators and Epic saying the ps5's SSD tech is so impactful, they've rewritten their core I/O subsystems for UE5 with the ps5 in mind. Is the MS exec a complete idiot that doesn't know what he's talking about, did Sony spend a fortune on overdeveloping their SSD and pay Epic to say those things? Who knows, but MS really needs to show something really impressive on July if they want to change the "most powerful next gen console" narrative.

Oh so now it’s “everything would run fine on a HDD.. except this.” And “but this doesn’t require a ‘fast’ SSD”. Keep shifting those goal posts, friend. 

I don’t know or care what you think about what qualifies a game as next gen or not because your definition is constantly changing to suit whatever Sony is doing and furthermore you’re the only one who was making a big deal about cross gen and “real next gen games” anyway. 

What is the IO gap? How much does the XVA improve XSX?  Again you’re speaking factually about things right after claiming no one knows. Also yeah we can only judge the games. Neither has shown anything super impressive yet imho. The most impressive stuff was not gameplay for both, Hellblade II and HFW. But that doesn’t mean the games won’t be good. I was more impressed with games like Little Devil Inside and that K game and both of those are cross gen, your literal nightmare. Funny how that works.

Cant wait to see your definitions change again after the July and August events.

How hard can it be to grasp what the average person would consider next gen graphics? Like I said before, they should be self explanatory. Now, has it ever occurred to you that what Sony showed got people excited because it simply felt next gen, and not because Playstation is so popular that the masses will flip out over whatever they show by default. I mean do you think anyone got super excited over Godfall? That game is also not on ps4, but its obviously not going to push the ps5 to its limits and have insane requirements on pc. 

Anything we've seen so far on Series X are either cross-gen titles or games that, just like Godfall, aren't going to take full advantage of next gen like specs. They looked like run-of-the-mill pc games in 4k and that's why MS's event lacked that next-gen excitement. 

 

Last edited by goopy20 - on 15 June 2020

True, I mean when Sony revealed a logo and got huge reactions it probably wasn’t just because they have the biggest WW audience, I bet the logo “felt” next gen. Also the controller. I guess it just “felt” next gen. Despite no one actually feeling it and the other being a logo.

Funny that you’re downplaying what’s been shown in the XSX event but meanwhile some of the most impressive stuff shown in the PS event were multiplat cross gen games. Can you not just finally admit that your idea of what is “real next gen” is just nonsense lol.

So great graphics in an XSX game = well it’s just a PC title in 4K. Great graphics in a PS5 game = NEXT GEN BITCHES

Ok, we understand now. Thanks, friend.



LudicrousSpeed said:
True, I mean when Sony revealed a logo and got huge reactions it probably wasn’t just because they have the biggest WW audience, I bet the logo “felt” next gen. Also the controller. I guess it just “felt” next gen. Despite no one actually feeling it and the other being a logo.

Funny that you’re downplaying what’s been shown in the XSX event but meanwhile some of the most impressive stuff shown in the PS event were multiplat cross gen games. Can you not just finally admit that your idea of what is “real next gen” is just nonsense lol.

So great graphics in an XSX game = well it’s just a PC title in 4K. Great graphics in a PS5 game = NEXT GEN BITCHES

Ok, we understand now. Thanks, friend.

Not sure why you take it seriously he said he was fine on his 1060



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

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Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

LudicrousSpeed said:
True, I mean when Sony revealed a logo and got huge reactions it probably wasn’t just because they have the biggest WW audience, I bet the logo “felt” next gen. Also the controller. I guess it just “felt” next gen. Despite no one actually feeling it and the other being a logo.

Funny that you’re downplaying what’s been shown in the XSX event but meanwhile some of the most impressive stuff shown in the PS event were multiplat cross gen games. Can you not just finally admit that your idea of what is “real next gen” is just nonsense lol.

So great graphics in an XSX game = well it’s just a PC title in 4K. Great graphics in a PS5 game = NEXT GEN BITCHES

Ok, we understand now. Thanks, friend.

What does the logo and the controller have to do with how the press responded to the actual ps5 games? Ratchet & Clank simply did things that we haven't seen before on that kind of scale. That's why the general public and sites like DF were excited over it. If you don't agree then just show me 1 example of a game that does anything like it. On the flip side, show me one game during Series X's reveal that doesn't look like it could be on current gen? 

Last edited by goopy20 - on 15 June 2020

goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
True, I mean when Sony revealed a logo and got huge reactions it probably wasn’t just because they have the biggest WW audience, I bet the logo “felt” next gen. Also the controller. I guess it just “felt” next gen. Despite no one actually feeling it and the other being a logo.

Funny that you’re downplaying what’s been shown in the XSX event but meanwhile some of the most impressive stuff shown in the PS event were multiplat cross gen games. Can you not just finally admit that your idea of what is “real next gen” is just nonsense lol.

So great graphics in an XSX game = well it’s just a PC title in 4K. Great graphics in a PS5 game = NEXT GEN BITCHES

Ok, we understand now. Thanks, friend.

What does the logo and the controller have to do with how the press responded to the actual ps5 games? Ratchet & Clank simply did things that we haven't seen before on that kind of scale. That's why the general public and sites like DF were excited over it. If you don't agree then just show me 1 example of a game that does anything like it. On the flip side, show me one game during Series X's reveal that doesn't look like it could be on current gen? 

Who said anything about the press? You said general consensus and “the masses”. Seems like the opposite of the gaming press but hey, that’s what happens when you’re shifting the goal posts constantly. You mentioned the “feel” of next gen games, I’m just pointing out that even when Sony had only showed a logo, people were going crazy. Of course they’re going to go crazy when actual games are shown.

I already told you multiple times Ratchet was impressive. What words exactly are you looking for me to say here? Let me know what will make you feel better. I already mentioned games that have you shifting to other worlds or levels, and I admitted they are on a smaller scale because PS5 has better specs. So are you again saying true next gen means it just looks better and has bigger scale? Because as others have pointed out, you have months worth of posts showing otherwise.

Also how do you feel about some of the most impressive looking stuff being cross gen, that has to sting after your XSX crusade.