Forums - Gaming Discussion - Unreal 5 Demo vs Series X Reveal

Which event got you more impressed?

Xbox Series X Gameplay Event 25 27.17%
 
Unreal Engine 5 PS5 Demo 67 72.83%
 
Total:92
SvennoJ said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Unreal Engine 5 is being optimized for 60fps

Epic China says you don't need PS5's SSD to run the demo, decent SSDs will do just fine.

Dunno if I have a decent SSD in my gaming laptop, this is what it can do


Only half as fast as the PS5 SSD in raw speed under optimal conditions.
Of course PS5 can also benefit from compression upping the data rate to 9 GB/S while directly reading into video memory.
For some reason my SSD suffers greatly from random access, perhaps that's normal or a windows thing?

It's much faster than the HDD at least which has it's own quirks. (Why is writing faster than reading?)
But it's obvious that random access is a death sentence for HDDs.

Anyway if this is a decent SSD (I don't know) then the ps5 is at least 3 times faster and can bypass reading things first to normal ram to transfer them through to vram afterwards.

The C drive certainly has a decent one. The problem is we won't really know a lot of things until the next gen systems launch and until then, we can only speculate as to how things will perform. At the very least for the first couple years after launch, I think most SSDs like yours will be fine. Once the cross gen phase goes away and engines really start getting optimized for next gen technologies. That's when people may need to upgrade for AAA games.

The one thing that no one should be able to refute is the fap worthy SSD that's in the PS5 since it really is hella fast.



             

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DonFerrari said:
Shadow1980 said:
In terms of showing off what we can expect graphically from next-gen, the UE5 demo wins hands down. It was absolutely gorgeous. If that's any indication of what we can expect from the PS5 and XSX in terms of visual quality in AAA games, then... wow. Just awesome. We already potentially got a taste of proper next-gen visuals with the Hellblade II trailer, but this was actual gameplay, so it's highly likely to be representative of what big-budget next-gen games will look like when playing them. I've been saying for quite some time that there is still a lot of progress to be made with game graphics: lighting, draw distances, animation, etc. Returns may be diminishing, but are still more than significant enough to warrant new generations of consoles.

That being said, I do appreciate what MS tried to do with last week's showcase. It highlighted mostly smaller developers and lower-key games that are likely to get overlooked because the focus will be on the big AAA titles. Should they have opened with a video focused on such titles? Given the reception, probably not. There should have at least been a couple of other major AAA games featured there besides a trailer for AC: Valhalla, and with actual gameplay. If there was nothing the big third parties could show off in terms of gameplay, then maybe MS should have held off on the event. Strategically, you could argue last week's showcase was a bad move, and they should have been more explicit about what to expect even if it didn't produce as much hype, but you can't fault MS for not highlighting some unique games that might otherwise not be given the time of day.

In any case, I'm definitely looking forward to next generation. I'm still planning on getting an XSX at launch and a PS5 some time in 2021. Both systems will pretty much be guaranteed to have plenty to warrant getting them. I have both an X1X and PS4, and I've thoroughly enjoyed both of them.

It is all about balance. Sony also had a lot of Indies on PS4 reveal but they also revealed jaw dropping demos at the same time and good quantity. When the event made by MS had basically only indies and one crossgen that wasn't looking jaw dropping besides Hellblade or Halo also not doing that when presented that harm a little the power narrative MS is going for.

But sure in the end all that is irrelevant as both companies are still to really show what they have for launch and will probably do it along June/July.

You know, ever since MS announced that they were going to be doing a presentation every month I have been doubting this strategy. If you're going to do several presentations of course you cannot put everything on just one; of course you are going to have to space your content, so every event is going to look (and be) smaller by default.

Sony, on the other hand, apparently is going to drop it all in one sitting so there is a high chance that is going to look/be bigger by default.

Now, which one is the best strategy? I'm actually inclined to say Sony's, but I'm kinda of glad MS is doing it this way because it gives smaller games their time to shine. I mean, games like Scorn, The Medium, Call of The Sea and Scarlet Nexus would have been buried if they had been shown on the same event as Halo, Hellblade, Forza and Fable? And contrary to what some people want to make you believe that these games were hated by everybody, if you look at every trailer independently you will see that each of these games actually had a good reception.



SvennoJ said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Unreal Engine 5 is being optimized for 60fps

Epic China says you don't need PS5's SSD to run the demo, decent SSDs will do just fine.

Dunno if I have a decent SSD in my gaming laptop, this is what it can do


Only half as fast as the PS5 SSD in raw speed under optimal conditions.
Of course PS5 can also benefit from compression upping the data rate to 9 GB/S while directly reading into video memory.
For some reason my SSD suffers greatly from random access, perhaps that's normal or a windows thing?

It's much faster than the HDD at least which has it's own quirks. (Why is writing faster than reading?)
But it's obvious that random access is a death sentence for HDDs.

Anyway if this is a decent SSD (I don't know) then the ps5 is at least 3 times faster and can bypass reading things first to normal ram to transfer them through to vram afterwards.

but the compression is a software thing right? thats not specific to a SSD or HDD



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kirby007 said:
SvennoJ said:

Dunno if I have a decent SSD in my gaming laptop, this is what it can do


Only half as fast as the PS5 SSD in raw speed under optimal conditions.
Of course PS5 can also benefit from compression upping the data rate to 9 GB/S while directly reading into video memory.
For some reason my SSD suffers greatly from random access, perhaps that's normal or a windows thing?

It's much faster than the HDD at least which has it's own quirks. (Why is writing faster than reading?)
But it's obvious that random access is a death sentence for HDDs.

Anyway if this is a decent SSD (I don't know) then the ps5 is at least 3 times faster and can bypass reading things first to normal ram to transfer them through to vram afterwards.

but the compression is a software thing right? thats not specific to a SSD or HDD

I thought there was some specific hardware to handle that (both on Series X and PS5)

The SSD can deliver uncompressed data to other system components at up to 5.5GB/sec via its new proprietary hardware, which is over twice that of an Xbox Series X. And like the Xbox Series X, the PS5 also has dedicated hardware-based decompression to reduce CPU overhead.

Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/71340/understanding-the-ps5s-ssd-deep-dive-into-next-gen-storage-tech/index.html

Sure any game on PC can (and does) use compressed data as well, and the superior CPU on PCs likely handles it just as fast. On the consoles it won't effect the CPU at all. (or very little) The big difference is delivery, straight to where it needs to go on ps5 instead of multiple steps.

Anyway fast travel can finally be fast travel, not wait a full minute for the world to reload.



SvennoJ said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Unreal Engine 5 is being optimized for 60fps

Epic China says you don't need PS5's SSD to run the demo, decent SSDs will do just fine.

Dunno if I have a decent SSD in my gaming laptop, this is what it can do


Only half as fast as the PS5 SSD in raw speed under optimal conditions.
Of course PS5 can also benefit from compression upping the data rate to 9 GB/S while directly reading into video memory.
For some reason my SSD suffers greatly from random access, perhaps that's normal or a windows thing?

It's much faster than the HDD at least which has it's own quirks. (Why is writing faster than reading?)
But it's obvious that random access is a death sentence for HDDs.

Anyway if this is a decent SSD (I don't know) then the ps5 is at least 3 times faster and can bypass reading things first to normal ram to transfer them through to vram afterwards.

It's kinda mind blowing that laptop SSDs less than 10 year old were not that much better than HDDs. My 2011 MacBook Air had read speed just around 120MB/s but it was one of the first laptops that adopted SSD as far as I remember.



 

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I dont want to talk a bout leaks and rumors but it seems worth to no one from moores law is dead. Since he got the nvidia line up right and other stuff.

But the consoles are gona bitch slap the rtx 2080ti. Even the 3060 will out perform the 2080ti. Aparantly the rt features in the rtx line up is so bad that even if rasterasation is better on the card, as soon as rt is enable everything is just gona smack even the rtx 2080ti.

Rtx line up is gona age like milk. So that 2080 laptop beating the ps5 rumor sounds fishy.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

I hope whatever Sony did with its design gets adapted into PC in some form. I really believe their design is a game changer.



Oneeee-Chan!!! said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Unreal Engine 5 is being optimized for 60fps

Epic China says you don't need PS5's SSD to run the demo, decent SSDs will do just fine.

Thanks.

By the way it is from the reddit.
The original video has very low views and low ratings.
Besides, Can you understand Chinese?

P.M  Do you really believe that the PS5 performs less than a laptop PC?

Depends on the laptop PC.

GeForce RTX 2080 Super Max-Q would give the PS5 a run for it's money... You also have desktop replacement laptops with full Geforce RTX 2080's in them and in 6 months time, probably RTX 3080's.

But the demo in question isn't using the consoles to their fullest extent, the Ray Tracing cores aren't being utilized which is extra computational capability left on the table.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

Wait a minute.
Why is the PS5 GPU performing less than the mobile RTX 2080?
RDNA2's performance should be greater than RDNA1.
At least above the 5700XT and should be equivalent to the RTX2080.
In addition, the performance efficiency is different in pc and the console.
Even in the same part the console has much better performance.

You just quote someone else,can you really explain it?

We don't know how RDNA2 performs, the hardware isn't on the market, we can only assume (And rightly so) that it will be more performant than RDNA1.

The RTX 2080 is a beast... This particular demo wasn't optimized for the hardware either, which is the key thing here... That it looks and runs that well without being optimized fully is a testament to how solid the console hardware is right now.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

I don't know why you compare the RTX2080 with the 5700XT.
It should be mobile 2080.
The PS5 GPU has a 10.3TF performance because the clock is very high.
Even at 36CU, it is more powerful than the 5700XT.

Not all notebooks use the mobile variant of the RTX 2080, they sometimes use the desktop variant.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

Remember your first post?

The laptop runs at 40fps+ in the demo.
PS5 runs at 30fps.

That's a gap of at least 33%.

There is no such gap between RDNA 2 10.3TF and mobile 2080.

More to performance than just flops. nVidia's gaming performance on a per-flop basis is better than AMD's.

But if flops was the most important aspect of the hardware, then the Xbox Series X would be 20% faster than the Playstation 5... But it simply isn't.

Flops in this sense is entirely theoretical, not real world... And most people do not even understand how it relates to the games rendering anyway, making it an irrelevant talking point.

hinch said:
Actually a bit sketchy thinking about it. The PS5 GPU should faster than 5700XT, which in turn should be more powerful than a RTX2070 Super.

I would take that statement with a grain of salt. A hearsay from some Chinese source / forums doesn't bring much confidence.

But anyway getting offtopic lol.

It's probably accurate with the current un-optimized build of that demo.
EPIC isn't going to invest years and 100's of millions to build a demo remember.

SvennoJ said:


Only half as fast as the PS5 SSD in raw speed under optimal conditions.
Of course PS5 can also benefit from compression upping the data rate to 9 GB/S while directly reading into video memory.
For some reason my SSD suffers greatly from random access, perhaps that's normal or a windows thing?

It's much faster than the HDD at least which has it's own quirks. (Why is writing faster than reading?)
But it's obvious that random access is a death sentence for HDDs.

Anyway if this is a decent SSD (I don't know) then the ps5 is at least 3 times faster and can bypass reading things first to normal ram to transfer them through to vram afterwards.

Random reads/writes and sequential writes are also always slower than sequential reads. The Playstaton 5 is no exception.

I think you are starting to get an idea that it's not as black-and-white as Sony/Microsoft/Non-tech literate people are trying to portray it as...

But the reason why SSD writes are slower than reads is down to the fundamental technology itself.

An SSD cannot "overwrite" data on the SSD, they need to perform an erase operation before initiating the write and this costs time... Impacting performance.

But when you have a fresh SSD and all the cells are empty, it doesn't need to perform that erase first, this will increase performance, but it will still be slower than a read, the reason for that... Is the SSD works on a "page system" so if a page is 2kb, the page is 4kb, so the SSD does it's best job to pair up two 2kb pieces of data to fit onto the 4kb page and will often juggle around data, this can also cost time.

The SSD also has it's own database essentially that keeps track of where all that data is being written, after a write has been performed the SSD needs to update that database which also takes time.
Then you have things like wear leveling algorithms which tries to ensure that the read-write cycles even out of the entire SSD, which means for random reads/writes the data may be physically located on the opposite sides of the SSD... And that is where the laws of physics steps in, it takes time for the controller to send/receive data the further away it is. - It's not as pronounced as a mechanical hard drive, but it's still there.

This is the "dumbed down" version essentially. - The issue itself is dubbed "Write amplification"

Allot of engineering goes into SSD's to work around the problem with Ram caches, wear leveling, TRIM, data compression/duplication and more... Heck some SSD's will place some sets of data into groups depending on how often they get read/write.


kirby007 said:

but the compression is a software thing right? thats not specific to a SSD or HDD

There are PC SSD's that employ hardware-based compression algorithms on the actual controller.

PC can also brute force it via software, because it has the CPU and Memory resources to do so.

derpysquirtle64 said:

It's kinda mind blowing that laptop SSDs less than 10 year old were not that much better than HDDs. My 2011 MacBook Air had read speed just around 120MB/s but it was one of the first laptops that adopted SSD as far as I remember.

The biggest advantages that SSD's brought to notebooks was lower power consumption, increasing battery life, reliability as there is no spinning parts that could be bumped/broken and those low access times, making the system much more responsive.

I was an early adopter of SSD's, had them for about 12 years now in my PC's, back then the sequential reads weren't that much better than a Western Digital Black/VelociRaptor, but those access times made all the difference.

eva01beserk said:
I dont want to talk a bout leaks and rumors but it seems worth to no one from moores law is dead. Since he got the nvidia line up right and other stuff.

But the consoles are gona bitch slap the rtx 2080ti. Even the 3060 will out perform the 2080ti. Aparantly the rt features in the rtx line up is so bad that even if rasterasation is better on the card, as soon as rt is enable everything is just gona smack even the rtx 2080ti.

Rtx line up is gona age like milk. So that 2080 laptop beating the ps5 rumor sounds fishy.

I would hope the consoles beat an RTX 2080Ti. (Although there is currently no evidence to support your assertion!)
But the 2080Ti will be outdated before the next-gen consoles launched anyway.

The RT features aren't bad either. They are fantastic... So much so that AMD is going to copy that feature and bring it to consoles.












--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:

Random reads/writes and sequential writes are also always slower than sequential reads. The Playstaton 5 is no exception.

I think you are starting to get an idea that it's not as black-and-white as Sony/Microsoft/Non-tech literate people are trying to portray it as...

But the reason why SSD writes are slower than reads is down to the fundamental technology itself.

An SSD cannot "overwrite" data on the SSD, they need to perform an erase operation before initiating the write and this costs time... Impacting performance.

But when you have a fresh SSD and all the cells are empty, it doesn't need to perform that erase first, this will increase performance, but it will still be slower than a read, the reason for that... Is the SSD works on a "page system" so if a page is 2kb, the page is 4kb, so the SSD does it's best job to pair up two 2kb pieces of data to fit onto the 4kb page and will often juggle around data, this can also cost time.

The SSD also has it's own database essentially that keeps track of where all that data is being written, after a write has been performed the SSD needs to update that database which also takes time.
Then you have things like wear leveling algorithms which tries to ensure that the read-write cycles even out of the entire SSD, which means for random reads/writes the data may be physically located on the opposite sides of the SSD... And that is where the laws of physics steps in, it takes time for the controller to send/receive data the further away it is. - It's not as pronounced as a mechanical hard drive, but it's still there.

This is the "dumbed down" version essentially. - The issue itself is dubbed "Write amplification"

Allot of engineering goes into SSD's to work around the problem with Ram caches, wear leveling, TRIM, data compression/duplication and more... Heck some SSD's will place some sets of data into groups depending on how often they get read/write.

Thanks, I learned something new about SSDs :)

My confusion however mostly came from the HDD write speed being significantly faster than its read speed. Is that just the luck of the draw, was it writing at the outer orbit while reading from the inner orbit. HDD afaik have constant angular velocity, thus the outside moves much faster than the inside.
Or does it have to do with caching, HDD says thank you for the data and does more work without holding up the test tool.



Second, why are random reads so much slower on SSD. Seek time should be instant, yet sequential reads are still 3.6 to 50 times faster. It actually writes the smallest chunks faster than it can read them. That looks like managing your data chunks is still as important as before. (And probably why, for example, it still takes KSP a long time to load, tons of little files)

Ah looking up what the Q and T stand for helps a bit, Queue depth (number of requests at once) and Threads used. I guess Q1T1 is stress testing the IO controller mainly, all separate requests which the IO controller can add together to write more efficiently, yet while reading I guess the tool waits for the data before sending the next request.

Anyway not as simple as dump a ton of files in a directory and hope for the best. Optimizing for efficient reading of data will still help.



To me that Ssd thing feels more and more like the cell cpu mumbo jumbo all over again... Sounds like an expensive hardware specific tech that might be looked over by multi Plat développer and make the HW more expensive

But anyway are people really arguing the difference of In engine game play of a game versus a tech demo Of An Engine 😂🤣, both are pretty weak, but I prefer seeing games than tech demos if given the choice... But tech demos usually look better... Nothing really new here especially with UE tech demos they are always eye-catching...

You guys are so funnnnny...

And isn't UE5 not due for an other year? So at least 2 for a game to come out running with it...

Man console war use to have way more amo on both side back in the days... Damn millenials and their halfcocked lousy arguments...

Anyway on paper and so far XBSX has clearly the edge in the HW department and I hardly see how a single faster Ssd would change that... Even with all the dev talk, nothing has proven to bridge the gap, it'll help for some things to run faster... But it ain't gonna compute more once you cap the chips... It's like having a mouthful, if you can't swallow it, a bigger load just gets messy 😂😜

But that being said you can have a Ferrari if you don't have the games it's like having no fuel and so far nothing on both side really popped my next Gen cherry...