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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

 

You concerned yet?

Yes 94 49.47%
 
No, but I will be followi... 50 26.32%
 
No, its being overblown 46 24.21%
 
Total:190
LurkerJ said:
SvennoJ said:

Weekly update, not good.


The USA and Europe are about the same for reported cases, more deaths in Europe though.
North America reported 2.02 million new cases (up from 1.57 million) and 28,763 more deaths (up from 24,369)
Europe reported 1.65 million new cases (up from 1.45 million) and 34,230 more deaths (up from 31,356)

What are the totals like now for most countries? Which countries have actually managed to keep the virus at bay? It looks like the west is somewhat equally screwed. 

You can check all the totals here
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Top 5, cases / deaths

USA 22.5 million / 379K
India 10.5 million / 151K
Brazil  8.0 million / 202K
Russia 3.4 million / 61K
UK 3.0 million / 81K


Vietnam is doing really well for its size, only 1500 cases and 35 deaths on a population of 96 million.

Their strategy obviously works, if it's one you would want to live in is a different question
https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/vietnams-war-against-covid-19/

Yet there are parallels with New Zealand and Taiwam

Other countries, such as Taiwan and New Zealand, have likewise been remarkably successful in cultivating high levels of social cohesion, which helped to keep the pandemic at bay. No matter what the means are, it is clear that those who stay united manage to persevere in the face of the hardest situations.

Clear and consistent messaging bordering on indoctrination together with strong social cohesion is what works. Shouting fake news and standing up for your rights not to wear a mask, does not help.



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LurkerJ said:
SvennoJ said:

Weekly update, not good.


The USA and Europe are about the same for reported cases, more deaths in Europe though.
North America reported 2.02 million new cases (up from 1.57 million) and 28,763 more deaths (up from 24,369)
Europe reported 1.65 million new cases (up from 1.45 million) and 34,230 more deaths (up from 31,356)

What are the totals like now for most countries?
Which countries have actually managed to keep the virus at bay? It looks like the west is somewhat equally screwed. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

For (confirmed) infections:
1 USA  (22,5m)
2 India (10,4m)
3 Brazil (8m)
4 Russia (3,4m)
5 UK  (3m)
6 France
7 Turkey
8 Italy
9 Spain
10 Germany  (1,9m)

For deaths:
1 USA  (~380k)
2 Brazil  (~202k)
3 India (~151k)
4 Mexico (~133k)
5 UK (~81k)
6 Italy  (~78k)
7 France  (~67k)
8 Russia (excess mortality comments from officals, point towards 150,000+ deaths, their currently listed as 62k)
9 Iran (~56k)
10 Spain (~52k)

(UK, USA, have given questionable numbers (ei. lower than real numbers probably suggestion))
(India doesnt know their real numbers, its impossible with slums to get accurate info)
(russia seems to be outright lieing about numbers, in the same vain as china was/is)



SvennoJ said:
LurkerJ said:

Which countries have actually managed to keep the virus at bay? It looks like the west is somewhat equally screwed. 

Vietnam is doing really well for its size, only 1500 cases and 35 deaths on a population of 96 million.

Their strategy obviously works, if it's one you would want to live in is a different question
https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/vietnams-war-against-covid-19/

Yet there are parallels with New Zealand and Taiwam

Other countries, such as Taiwan and New Zealand, have likewise been remarkably successful in cultivating high levels of social cohesion, which helped to keep the pandemic at bay. No matter what the means are, it is clear that those who stay united manage to persevere in the face of the hardest situations.

Clear and consistent messaging bordering on indoctrination together with strong social cohesion is what works. Shouting fake news and standing up for your rights not to wear a mask, does not help.

So much this.

People that cry "enough is enough" "my rights", and those that refuse to follow guildelines, are what cause this to drag on forever, and keep staying around (and harming and killing more people). Its a case of "only as strong as your weakest link", and the more of these types you have in a society the worse it does.

Its sad, but it appears that chinas methode of simply beating people into submission, might have been for their own good.
Even if they lied about numbers (by a factor of like 10x), they still got of light compaired to many other nations, esp considering their population density.

Pandemics are handled best either by haveing insane levels of unity & social cohesion (to the point a free nation almost wont have it), or by simply enforceing it with a heavy hand (dictator like style).



Quarantine:

The word quarantine comes from quarantena, meaning "forty days", used in 14th–15th-century Venetian and designating the period that all ships were required to be isolated before passengers and crew could go ashore during the Black Death plague epidemic; it followed the trentino, or thirty-day isolation period, first imposed in 1347 in the Republic of Ragusa, Dalmatia (modern Dubrovnik in Croatia).

This worked (europe figured this sh*t out ages ago).

How did they manage to get people to copperate?
Did they have high levels of social unity & cohesion? nope.


They had a 0 tolerance policy, and shot and killed anyone attempting to break Quarantine rules.
After that, no more disease & plague.

Now people arnt even given fines most places for breaking rules.
And if they are, their so light, many dont even take it seriously.
Ontop of those crazies that just laugh in the face of it all, and believe their own "alternative facts" (or reality).

There should be crazy punishments for doing things that lead to more spread (and breaking rules/guidelines).
Only way to get public "unity" some places.
Police officeres like (some of) the ones in the USA, that refuse to enact these laws & rules, should all be fired, and fined, and blacklisted.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 09 January 2021

SvennoJ said:
LurkerJ said:

What are the totals like now for most countries? Which countries have actually managed to keep the virus at bay? It looks like the west is somewhat equally screwed. 

You can check all the totals here
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Top 5, cases / deaths

USA 22.5 million / 379K
India 10.5 million / 151K
Brazil  8.0 million / 202K
Russia 3.4 million / 61K
UK 3.0 million / 81K


Vietnam is doing really well for its size, only 1500 cases and 35 deaths on a population of 96 million.

Their strategy obviously works, if it's one you would want to live in is a different question
https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/vietnams-war-against-covid-19/

Yet there are parallels with New Zealand and Taiwam

Other countries, such as Taiwan and New Zealand, have likewise been remarkably successful in cultivating high levels of social cohesion, which helped to keep the pandemic at bay. No matter what the means are, it is clear that those who stay united manage to persevere in the face of the hardest situations.

Clear and consistent messaging bordering on indoctrination together with strong social cohesion is what works. Shouting fake news and standing up for your rights not to wear a mask, does not help.

100% agree

I wish for people who have lost someone due to COVID to start suing all of those journalists and politics that have made a point of spreading misinformation. I'm sure they will be more careful about the sh*t they say on TV/Social media when people start holding them accountable for their actions.



JRPGfan said:
SvennoJ said:

So much this.

People that cry "enough is enough" "my rights", and those that refuse to follow guildelines, are what cause this to drag on forever, and keep staying around (and harming and killing more people). Its a case of "only as strong as your weakest link", and the more of these types you have in a society the worse it does.

Its sad, but it appears that chinas methode of simply beating people into submission, might have been for their own good.
Even if they lied about numbers (by a factor of like 10x), they still got of light compaired to many other nations, esp considering their population density.

Pandemics are handled best either by haveing insane levels of unity & social cohesion (to the point a free nation almost wont have it), or by simply enforceing it with a heavy hand (dictator like style).



Quarantine:

The word quarantine comes from quarantena, meaning "forty days", used in 14th–15th-century Venetian and designating the period that all ships were required to be isolated before passengers and crew could go ashore during the Black Death plague epidemic; it followed the trentino, or thirty-day isolation period, first imposed in 1347 in the Republic of Ragusa, Dalmatia (modern Dubrovnik in Croatia).

This worked (europe figured this sh*t out ages ago).

How did they manage to get people to copperate?
Did they have high levels of social unity & cohesion? nope.


They had a 0 tolerance policy, and shot and killed anyone attempting to break Quarantine rules.
After that, no more disease & plague.

Now people arnt even given fines most places for breaking rules.
And if they are, their so light, many dont even take it seriously.
Ontop of those crazies that just laugh in the face of it all, and believe their own "alternative facts" (or reality).

There should be crazy punishments for doing things that lead to more spread (and breaking rules/guidelines).
Only way to get public "unity" some places.
Police officeres like (some of) the ones in the USA, that refuse to enact these laws & rules, should all be fired, and fined, and blacklisted.

Dude, chill out. I think you're way too emotionally invested in this. It's a respiratory tract disease, not the fucking black plague.

Yeah, countries who are either islands or authoritarian and absurdly non-transparent about their data have fewer infections, who on Earth could have predicted that? Truly mindblowing that it's exactly these who happen to have that mythical "social cohesion" you speak of...

Note, every sociologist would agree and point out that non-democratic countries have greater degrees of social unrest and civil disobedience. Google 'mass incidents': that's the euphemism China uses for them, for instance. So, no need to toss civil liberties out of the window.

Incredible that we have to argue that no, use of force is not the way, but here we are.

Also this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1510_influenza_pandemic

I thought they were supposed to have "figured things out" at the beginning of the modern age according to you, no? Guess it's not as easy as it seems, then.



 

 

 

 

 

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First day of curfew in Quebec

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/at-least-two-people-detained-during-protest-on-first-night-of-curfew-1.5259214

At least two people were detained at a Montreal protest against the province-wide curfew on Saturday evening. Several tickets were also handed out at the gathering, which began at 7:30 p.m. and soon violated the new curfew, which went into effect at 8 p.m.

In a statement posted to social media, the group responsible for planning the gatherings called for the end of the "state of emergency," writing that they stand “against curfews and abusive measures.”


No social cohesion here

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/thousands-of-canadians-still-travelling-to-hawaii-despite-pandemic-1.5260329

In the wake of several Canadian elected officials being caught travelling over the holidays – despite federal health guidelines stating non-essential travel should be avoided – it turns out the Canadian public has also been travelling.


Another 41 dead in Quebec today, another 126 yesterday country wide. All preventable, but vacationing is more important.



SvennoJ said:

Vietnam is doing really well for its size, only 1500 cases and 35 deaths on a population of 96 million.

Their strategy obviously works, if it's one you would want to live in is a different question
https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/vietnams-war-against-covid-19/

Yet there are parallels with New Zealand and Taiwam

Other countries, such as Taiwan and New Zealand, have likewise been remarkably successful in cultivating high levels of social cohesion, which helped to keep the pandemic at bay. No matter what the means are, it is clear that those who stay united manage to persevere in the face of the hardest situations.

Clear and consistent messaging bordering on indoctrination together with strong social cohesion is what works. Shouting fake news and standing up for your rights not to wear a mask, does not help.

I was always impressed by Vietnams success in fighting this natural disaster. The country is poorer and more densely populated than most european countries. As a neighbor with close economic bonds to China it was affected early on. Yet Vietnam was able to get through it mostly unscathed.

And I think early and consistent messaging is one of the key areas here. You want to secure cooperation of the population, and while you can fine people breaking the rules, it is much more effective to start guifing them early on with clear and consistent messages. For instance, this song was from February subtitled in many languages (at a time here in europe everyone painted it as an asian problem and the governmental messaging was that our health system is great and nobody needs to worry):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtulL3oArQw&ab_channel=MINOFFICIAL

international variant in english: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGoodWEtV8c

That already takes the fight against the epidemic as a serious issue that everyone is involved in and communicates the main methods: hand washing, not touching the face, avoiding crowds, and the video shows consistent mask usage. People are fast to point out that Vietnam is a totalitarian state, and sure enforcing their methods with police and military was a factor. But having songs like these in February officially circulated is far from totalitarian and would have changed already a lot for other countries.



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SvennoJ said:
LurkerJ said:

What are the totals like now for most countries? Which countries have actually managed to keep the virus at bay? It looks like the west is somewhat equally screwed. 

You can check all the totals here
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Top 5, cases / deaths

USA 22.5 million / 379K
India 10.5 million / 151K
Brazil  8.0 million / 202K
Russia 3.4 million / 61K
UK 3.0 million / 81K


Vietnam is doing really well for its size, only 1500 cases and 35 deaths on a population of 96 million.

Their strategy obviously works, if it's one you would want to live in is a different question
https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/vietnams-war-against-covid-19/

Yet there are parallels with New Zealand and Taiwam

Other countries, such as Taiwan and New Zealand, have likewise been remarkably successful in cultivating high levels of social cohesion, which helped to keep the pandemic at bay. No matter what the means are, it is clear that those who stay united manage to persevere in the face of the hardest situations.

Clear and consistent messaging bordering on indoctrination together with strong social cohesion is what works. Shouting fake news and standing up for your rights not to wear a mask, does not help.

I don't know if I care that much about the total number of infected people to be honest. Almost everyone I know who got infected almost did it to themselves deliberately, by taking masks lightly and going on lunch breaks or socializing without masks. I have managed to avoid it by wearing the simplest of masks so far, despite the heavy daily exposure. It does seem like carelessness affects the careless the most, and had minimal effect on me. Early on we had contradicting evience and short supplies of masks, it's not the case anymore and in the majority of cases seem self-inflicted.



LurkerJ said:

I don't know if I care that much about the total number of infected people to be honest. Almost everyone I know who got infected almost did it to themselves deliberately, by taking masks lightly and going on lunch breaks or socializing without masks. I have managed to avoid it by wearing the simplest of masks so far, despite the heavy daily exposure. It does seem like carelessness affects the careless the most, and had minimal effect on me. Early on we had contradicting evience and short supplies of masks, it's not the case anymore and in the majority of cases seem self-inflicted.

The majority of deaths are not from self inflicted cases. Plus all those trying to help are put in danger by all these self inflicted cases. The high number of infections is what kills the vulnerable and overwhelms the hospitals. Carelessness in this case, kills indirectly. It actually fits the description of "Death due to negligence"



SvennoJ said:
LurkerJ said:

I don't know if I care that much about the total number of infected people to be honest. Almost everyone I know who got infected almost did it to themselves deliberately, by taking masks lightly and going on lunch breaks or socializing without masks. I have managed to avoid it by wearing the simplest of masks so far, despite the heavy daily exposure. It does seem like carelessness affects the careless the most, and had minimal effect on me. Early on we had contradicting evience and short supplies of masks, it's not the case anymore and in the majority of cases seem self-inflicted.

The majority of deaths are not from self inflicted cases. Plus all those trying to help are put in danger by all these self inflicted cases. The high number of infections is what kills the vulnerable and overwhelms the hospitals. Carelessness in this case, kills indirectly. It actually fits the description of "Death due to negligence"

I didn't talk about the majority of deaths though, I am talking about the majority of those who get infected seem not to care. Not the most polished of my points, I admit, but I just can't be bothered with raising awareness whatsoever, you can't possibly convince one more person at this point. I'll wear a mask and maintain my distance.