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He said in a previous interview that they didn’t work and potentially posed risks. How does he have any credibility at all? People could've made their own in house. Being lectured by him and many of his colleagues that we're not doing enough to save lives while simultaneously sprouting lies. A bunch of phonies. 

Last edited by LurkerJ - on 20 June 2020

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Curious to see what happens with Arizona, Utah, Texas, Florida, NC/SC, and other red states seeing a rise in cases. California might end up closing up again but I'm not sure how these states will handle it. Wonder which state will be the first to reverse course and close down.



Trumpstyle said:
jason1637 said:

Also Arizona has seen more Covid cases in June than the months of March-May.

Arizona with its 7.2 million population had 3246 new cases yesterday, I thought swedes were barbarians charging against the virus, but that isn't truth anymore. We peaking at only 1.4k cases with 10 million population.

Arizonians are the true barbarians, they might face an epic battle soon against this covid-virus.

Yes, having to stoop to comparisons with the US to come out favorably is always a great sign of strength and sensible policy.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

LurkerJ said:

He said in a previous interview that they didn’t work and potentially posed risks. How does he have any credibility at all? People could've made their own in house. Being lectured by him and many of his colleagues that we're not doing enough to save lives while simultaneously sprouting lies. A bunch of phonies. 

Had he said that they were effective, then people would have stormed and looted pharmacies just to get their hands on them at the time, and healthcare professionals, who need them the most, would have stayed empty-handed. He was between a rock and a hard place; admitting that masks work and risk a riot from people to get them and those who need them most not getting them; or lying to buy some time to get more stocks on the masks so everybody could get some at a later date.

The only other thing that he could have said is that any cover over the mouth and nose, be it a homemade mask, a bandana, a scarf, a visor, or anything else along those lines would be helpful, but that the medical masks will be reserved for medical staff until they got enough stocks in reserve. But I'm not sure about the efficacy of these compare to the medical masks, and they maybe also didn't, so they didn't want to go any risks later down the road with those and rather said that masks don't help.



jason1637 said:
Curious to see what happens with Arizona, Utah, Texas, Florida, NC/SC, and other red states seeing a rise in cases. California might end up closing up again but I'm not sure how these states will handle it. Wonder which state will be the first to reverse course and close down.

Florida is the first to buckle
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/06/20/restaurants-and-bars-temporally-close-as-covid-19-cases-rise-in-orlando-area/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/20/florida-covid19-surge-reopening-governor-desantis-coronavirus

USA continues to climb, yesterday USA was on top again in new cases, Brazil dropped down to weekend numbers, yet still high.
USA went up to 125% week over week change, 33.4K new cases yesterday.
Brazil went down to 31.6K new cases after their spike on Friday, tracking at 122% week over week change.
3 day average Brazil is still ahead.

Brazil reported 7,267 deaths last week vs 4,448 in the USA.
Since they're not far off with reported cases I'm guessing the USA, with its higher average age, is under counting deaths.



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Bofferbrauer2 said:

Had he said that they were effective, then people would have stormed and looted pharmacies just to get their hands on them at the time, and healthcare professionals, who need them the most, would have stayed empty-handed. He was between a rock and a hard place; admitting that masks work and risk a riot from people to get them and those who need them most not getting them; or lying to buy some time to get more stocks on the masks so everybody could get some at a later date.

The only other thing that he could have said is that any cover over the mouth and nose, be it a homemade mask, a bandana, a scarf, a visor, or anything else along those lines would be helpful, but that the medical masks will be reserved for medical staff until they got enough stocks in reserve. But I'm not sure about the efficacy of these compare to the medical masks, and they maybe also didn't, so they didn't want to go any risks later down the road with those and rather said that masks don't help.

Appealing to the avg person's common sense (leave medical masks for frontline workers) sadly doesn't work. Proof is in the toilet paper rush. And true early on it was already established that standard surgical masks still got health care workers infected, so they are indeed not truly effective to stop the virus. They still aren't but do reduce the chance to get infected which helps against community spread.

So it sort of was the right choice. Lock downs, don't really need masks in that phase. Re-openings, use masks to limit spread. N95 masks aren't perfect either, 95 stands for stopping 95% of airborne particles and only if you use them correctly.


https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-evidence-masks-covid-.html

Whether cloth masks protect others from the wearer was studied in the 1960s and 1970s. A mask made of three layers (muslin-flannel-muslin) reduced surface contamination by 99 percent, total airborne microorganisms by 99 percent, and bacteria recovered from the smaller particles, aerosols, by 88 percent to 99 percent.

A commercial mask made of four-layer cotton muslin was shown to reduce all particles by 99 percent, compared with 96 percent to 99 percent for contemporary disposable medical masks. Even for aerosols, the cloth mask was comparable with the medical masks of the day, the researchers say.

The filtration of cloth is quite variable and single layers of scarf, sweatshirt and t-shirt may be in the 10 to 40 percent range. But multiple layers increase efficiency, and modern studies have confirmed that some combinations of cloth, for example, cotton-flannel, block more than 90 percent of particles.

It all depends on the material, how well you close it up around your mouth and nose, how you handle it, and if you can still breath through it!
Aerosols are harder to block and you need the N95 masks for that, but you also need a lot more/longer exposure to aerosols to get infected.

Every bit helps



SvennoJ said:
jason1637 said:
Curious to see what happens with Arizona, Utah, Texas, Florida, NC/SC, and other red states seeing a rise in cases. California might end up closing up again but I'm not sure how these states will handle it. Wonder which state will be the first to reverse course and close down.

Florida is the first to buckle
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/06/20/restaurants-and-bars-temporally-close-as-covid-19-cases-rise-in-orlando-area/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/20/florida-covid19-surge-reopening-governor-desantis-coronavirus

USA continues to climb, yesterday USA was on top again in new cases, Brazil dropped down to weekend numbers, yet still high.
USA went up to 125% week over week change, 33.4K new cases yesterday.
Brazil went down to 31.6K new cases after their spike on Friday, tracking at 122% week over week change.
3 day average Brazil is still ahead.

Brazil reported 7,267 deaths last week vs 4,448 in the USA.
Since they're not far off with reported cases I'm guessing the USA, with its higher average age, is under counting deaths.

Some states are undercounted. Some places flue related deaths are up 3-5 times this year.

Or deaths are lagging behind.



SvennoJ said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Had he said that they were effective, then people would have stormed and looted pharmacies just to get their hands on them at the time, and healthcare professionals, who need them the most, would have stayed empty-handed. He was between a rock and a hard place; admitting that masks work and risk a riot from people to get them and those who need them most not getting them; or lying to buy some time to get more stocks on the masks so everybody could get some at a later date.

The only other thing that he could have said is that any cover over the mouth and nose, be it a homemade mask, a bandana, a scarf, a visor, or anything else along those lines would be helpful, but that the medical masks will be reserved for medical staff until they got enough stocks in reserve. But I'm not sure about the efficacy of these compare to the medical masks, and they maybe also didn't, so they didn't want to go any risks later down the road with those and rather said that masks don't help.

Appealing to the avg person's common sense (leave medical masks for frontline workers) sadly doesn't work. Proof is in the toilet paper rush. And true early on it was already established that standard surgical masks still got health care workers infected, so they are indeed not truly effective to stop the virus. They still aren't but do reduce the chance to get infected which helps against community spread.

So it sort of was the right choice. Lock downs, don't really need masks in that phase. Re-openings, use masks to limit spread. N95 masks aren't perfect either, 95 stands for stopping 95% of airborne particles and only if you use them correctly.


https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-evidence-masks-covid-.html

Whether cloth masks protect others from the wearer was studied in the 1960s and 1970s. A mask made of three layers (muslin-flannel-muslin) reduced surface contamination by 99 percent, total airborne microorganisms by 99 percent, and bacteria recovered from the smaller particles, aerosols, by 88 percent to 99 percent.

A commercial mask made of four-layer cotton muslin was shown to reduce all particles by 99 percent, compared with 96 percent to 99 percent for contemporary disposable medical masks. Even for aerosols, the cloth mask was comparable with the medical masks of the day, the researchers say.

The filtration of cloth is quite variable and single layers of scarf, sweatshirt and t-shirt may be in the 10 to 40 percent range. But multiple layers increase efficiency, and modern studies have confirmed that some combinations of cloth, for example, cotton-flannel, block more than 90 percent of particles.

It all depends on the material, how well you close it up around your mouth and nose, how you handle it, and if you can still breath through it!
Aerosols are harder to block and you need the N95 masks for that, but you also need a lot more/longer exposure to aerosols to get infected.

Every bit helps

That was my point, and he could just have mitigated it a bit by pointing at other kinds of improvised or handmade protective wear, but the panic buying would have been impossible to prevent if he admitted even just a sliver of efficacy. So he was pretty much forced to lie, and by doing so protected countless lives of medical professionals who would have been forced to work without any protective gear whatsoever otherwise.



Advising against mask use again.
https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/health-experts-advise-against-wearing-a-mask-outside-in-the-heat-and-humidity
Outdoors in the heat, you would think that would be obvious...

I did see someone cycling with a mask on Friday in the high heat + humidity. Got to spell it out for people, where's the common sense gone. I guess it left the building long ago while gargling bleach.



Bofferbrauer2 said:

That was my point, and he could just have mitigated it a bit by pointing at other kinds of improvised or handmade protective wear, but the panic buying would have been impossible to prevent if he admitted even just a sliver of efficacy. So he was pretty much forced to lie, and by doing so protected countless lives of medical professionals who would have been forced to work without any protective gear whatsoever otherwise.

Yep I agree, he had little choice considering the avg IQ level of today's society...