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Forums - Politics - Official Thread: The Impeachment of President Donald Trump

sundin13 said:
Locknuts said:

I haven't seen it. It all seems pretty weak to me. They need something absolutely concrete after that whole Russia fiasco, otherwise Trump is basically guaranteed 2020.

Unless I've just missed it? I'd be happy to get a link to some concrete stuff.

How do you consider trying to get Ukraine to publicly announce investigations (Note: Not just conduct investigations, but publicly announce investigations) of the Biden's by withholding military aid and a White House visit "pretty weak"? Like, how do you even defend that? How do you take a step back and say "No, that's totally cool and isn't a gross abuse of power"?

If this happened under any President who wasn't a complete shit show, it would easily be one of the biggest American political scandals of all time. Easy.

So he wanted them to make a public show that they're taking their stance on corruption seriously? Seems fair to me. It's not like the Ukraine are entitled to US money.

So what's the crime and how did he break it?



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SuaveSocialist said:
Locknuts said:

I haven't seen it. Unless I've just missed it? I'd be happy to get a link to some concrete stuff.

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/the_trump-ukraine_impeachment_inquiry_report.pdf

I'm reading it and it's seriously weak. So many assumptions. The Republicans are going to have a field day if the Democrats ever actually bother to formally impeach Trump. Has Pelosi even submitted it to the Senate yet?



Locknuts said:

So he wanted them to make a public show that they're taking their stance on corruption seriously? Seems fair to me.

He wanted them to make a public show of defaming his political rival in the run up to the election, as testified by Sondland during the hearing.

Locknuts said:

It's not like the Ukraine are entitled to US money.

It was already allocated by Congress; the president had no legal right to withhold it.

Locknuts said:

So what's the crime and how did he break it?

Abuse of power, obstruction of Congress, bribery, wire fraud, etc. He extorted a foreign power with money that was not his to manipulate for his personal gain in the upcoming election. Then he tried to cover it up, blocked all testimony he could, and withheld all documentation he was required to submit.



TallSilhouette said:
Locknuts said:

So he wanted them to make a public show that they're taking their stance on corruption seriously? Seems fair to me.

He wanted them to make a public show of defaming his political rival in the run up to the election, as testified by Sondland during the hearing.

Locknuts said:

It's not like the Ukraine are entitled to US money.

It was already allocated by Congress; the president had no legal right to withhold it.

Locknuts said:

So what's the crime and how did he break it?

Abuse of power, obstruction of Congress, bribery, wire fraud, etc. He extorted a foreign power with money that was not his to manipulate for his personal gain in the upcoming election. Then he tried to cover it up, blocked all testimony he could, and withheld all documentation he was required to submit.

These things could all be easily interpreted differently though. After the Russia fiasco, there can't be too much room for interpretation. For example:

- Sondland never said that Trump specifically wanted Biden investigated because he is Trump's potential future political rival. Biden openly admitted to withholding money from Ukraine unless a certain prosecutor was fired. The prosecutor was investigating Biden's son's company at the time. Trump could easily argue that it is ridiculous not to allow him to investigate someone seemingly admitting to corrupt conduct simply because they might run for President in the future.

- Trump could secondly argue that the money was handed over and was simply delayed because he didn't want to see billions of US dollars go to a known corrupt country. He begrudgingly did what he knew to be wrong, simply because his hands were tied legally.

If Trump successfully argues these cases, he's basically guaranteed himself a win in 2020. If the Russia thing never happened then maybe this would be more potent, but now he's making it look like he's an underdog, constantly under attack. The most powerful man in the world as the underdog!! As ridiculous as this sounds, the Democrats poor timing could actually make this happen.

What's worse: If Trump did in fact abuse his power, with their current case I predict he will get away with it. The Democrats, even with the help of the media are too incompetent to hold power to account. 

Either that, or Donald Trump is the greatest criminal mastermind of all time....I'm going with Democrat incompetence.



Locknuts said:
SuaveSocialist said:

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/the_trump-ukraine_impeachment_inquiry_report.pdf

I'm reading it and...so many assumptions. 

Your statement is debunked by the Endnotes.  Thirty pages of cited sources, beginning on page 261. 

They aren't assumptions, so it sounds like you aren't doing your reading. What are the odds?



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Well, this is big.

New documents show:

1. Ukraine aid was held just hours after the Trump/Zelensky “do us a favor” call

2. Internal notes show Trump’s direct involvement

3. Staff knew it was wrong, kept it secret

https://publicintegrity.org/national-security/trump-administration-officials-worried-ukraine-aid-halt-violated-spending-law/



deskpro2k3 said:

Well, this is big.

New documents show:

1. Ukraine aid was held just hours after the Trump/Zelensky “do us a favor” call

2. Internal notes show Trump’s direct involvement

3. Staff knew it was wrong, kept it secret

https://publicintegrity.org/national-security/trump-administration-officials-worried-ukraine-aid-halt-violated-spending-law/

I await Locknuts explanation of this story.  I am sure he can continue to find a silver lining here and easily explain it away so Trump can win in 2020.



SuaveSocialist said:
Locknuts said:

I'm reading it and...so many assumptions. 

Your statement is debunked by the Endnotes.  Thirty pages of cited sources, beginning on page 261. 

They aren't assumptions, so it sounds like you aren't doing your reading. What are the odds?

Ok so page 8 says the following:

'As this report details, the impeachment inquiry has found that President Trump,
personally and acting through agents within and outside of the U.S. government, solicited the
interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, to benefit his reelection.'

The bolded part is an assumption. To be fair, I have only read the relevant parts of Section 1. But I haven't found anything that proves that Trump was wanting to investigate Biden for his own benefit rather than to investigate corruption.

I'm not saying Trump didn't do it to benefit himself, but he could easily argue otherwise.



SuaveSocialist said:
Locknuts said:

I'm reading it and...so many assumptions. 

Your statement is debunked by the Endnotes.  Thirty pages of cited sources, beginning on page 261. 

They aren't assumptions, so it sounds like you aren't doing your reading. What are the odds?

That is funny for you to say at least,i assume you do a lot of reading but i wonder how broad amongst all different viewings you take in information...or that you just seek for confirmation?



deskpro2k3 said:

Well, this is big.

New documents show:

1. Ukraine aid was held just hours after the Trump/Zelensky “do us a favor” call

2. Internal notes show Trump’s direct involvement

3. Staff knew it was wrong, kept it secret

https://publicintegrity.org/national-security/trump-administration-officials-worried-ukraine-aid-halt-violated-spending-law/

'Sept. 30, 2019 - The deadline for all 2019 federal spending, by which time all the Ukraine aid was supposed to be disbursed, or it would be automatically cancelled. Ultimately, $35 million was not spent in time but the deadline was extended in new legislation passed Sept. 19.'

So Trump tried to withhold the aid. Realised it was probably illegal because he shot from the hip without checking first. Looks like they rushed legislation through to make sure it wouldn't be illegal. Trump didn't end up breaking the law.

If Trump withheld the aid to investigate Biden specifically to give him an advantage come 2020, then maybe he can be removed. There is no evidence of his intentions though and his base will argue that he simply needed leverage to ensure Biden's corruption was investigated for the sake of the country. He realised later he couldn't do this and released the aid.