Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The cuts for the Sw/Sh dex were worse than even the most pessimistic predictions

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Wyrdness said:

According to dataminers that chart of cut Pokemon may not be accurate as the are Pokemon in Sw/Sh that seem to be returning that the chart says aren't.

Blastoise, Venusaur, Alola starters and a bunch of mythicals/legendaries. Nothing good/interesting there, just fodder for events throughout the next year. 35 limited event Pokemon isn't a good thing.

Dataminers have also found that we've lost more than 100 moves in Sword and Shield:

002 Karate Chop
003 Double Slap
004 Comet Punch
013 Razor Wind
026 Jump Kick
027 Rolling Kick
041 Twineedle
049 Sonic Boom
082 Dragon Rage
096 Meditate
099 Rage
112 Barrier
117 Bide
119 Mirror Move
121 Egg Bomb
125 Bone Club
128 Clamp
131 Spike Cannon
132 Constrict
134 Kinesis
140 Barrage
145 Bubble
146 Dizzy Punch
148 Flash
149 Psywave
159 Sharpen
169 Spider Web
171 Nightmare
185 Feint Attack
193 Foresight
216 Return
218 Frustration
222 Magnitude
228 Pursuit
237 Hidden Power
265 Smelling Salts
274 Assist
287 Refresh
289 Snatch
290 Secret Power
293 Camouflage
300 Mud Sport
301 Ice Ball
302 Needle Arm
316 Odor Sleuth
318 Silver Wind
320 Grass Whistle
324 Signal Beam
327 Sky Uppercut
346 Water Sport
357 Miracle Eye
358 Wake-Up Slap
363 Natural Gift
373 Embargo
376 Trump Card
377 Heal Block
378 Wring Out
381 Lucky Chant
382 Me First
386 Punishment
426 Mud Bomb
429 Mirror Shot
431 Rock Climb
443 Magnet Bomb
445 Captivate
456 Heal Order
466 Ominous Wind
477 Telekinesis
481 Flame Burst
485 Synchronoise
498 Chip Away
507 Sky Drop
516 Bestow
531 Heart Stamp
537 Steamroller
563 Rototiller
569 Ion Deluge
622 Breakneck Blitz
623 Breakneck Blitz
624 All-Out Pummeling
625 All-Out Pummeling
626 Supersonic Skystrike
627 Supersonic Skystrike
628 Acid Downpour
629 Acid Downpour
630 Tectonic Rage
631 Tectonic Rage
632 Continental Crush
633 Continental Crush
634 Savage Spin-Out
635 Savage Spin-Out
636 Never-Ending Nightmare
637 Never-Ending Nightmare
638 Corkscrew Crash
639 Corkscrew Crash
640 Inferno Overdrive
641 Inferno Overdrive
642 Hydro Vortex
643 Hydro Vortex
644 Bloom Doom
645 Bloom Doom
646 Gigavolt Havoc
647 Gigavolt Havoc
648 Shattered Psyche
649 Shattered Psyche
650 Subzero Slammer
651 Subzero Slammer
652 Devastating Drake
653 Devastating Drake
654 Black Hole Eclipse
655 Black Hole Eclipse
656 Twinkle Tackle
657 Twinkle Tackle
658 Catastropika
671 Spotlight
695 Sinister Arrow Raid
696 Malicious Moonsault
697 Oceanic Operetta
698 Guardian of Alola
699 Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike
700 Stoked Sparksurfer
701 Pulverizing Pancake
702 Extreme Evoboost
703 Genesis Supernova
719 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt
723 Light That Burns the Sky
724 Searing Sunraze Smash
725 Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom
726 Let’s Snuggle Forever
727 Splintered Stormshards
728 Clangorous Soulblaze
729 Zippy Zap
730 Splishy Splash
731 Floaty Fall
732 Pika Papow
733 Bouncy Bubble
734 Buzzy Buzz
735 Sizzly Slide
736 Glitzy Glow
737 Baddy Bad
738 Sappy Seed
739 Freezy Frost
740 Sparkly Swirl
741 Veevee Volley

Signal Beam, Return, Hidden Power, Silver Wind and Magnet Bomb in particular stand out. Removing coverage moves from so many Pokemon. They continue to shoot themselves in the foot.



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To be fair 35 of those are probably all the Z-moves they introduced last gen and since its a feature they are removing altogether then it makes sense they get cut.
Still a couple of moves on that list are classic moves that have been around since Gen1. Not particularly strong or unbalancing ones, so its a bit weird they removed them.



I'm actually kind of Ok now with slashing the dex in half honestly, much to my own surprise. I do think the dex was getting too out of control and Pokemon were starting to feel just like a number rather than unique and special. I especially love the idea of going back to only 4-5 legendaries in the game just like gen 1. Legendaries especially were starting to feel diluted and like nothing special anymore. What i can't support here is the ones GF chose to keep. While some are obviously good choices, on the whole it's a pretty horrible selection, particularly gen 5. Why they would choose to keep so many from gen 5, which was by far the most creatively bankrupt gen for designs, is way beyond me. Especially since it's most of the worst offenders from gen 5. I mean, they even gave something as pointless as Stunfisk a galar form and didn't even bother with an evo that might've at least somewhat justified its existence. On the whole it's just a really bad selection. Almost to the point where I think they purposefully choose lots of less liked ones maybe in order to try to force people to use the new ones as much as possible.



RingoGaSuki said:
Wyrdness said:

According to dataminers that chart of cut Pokemon may not be accurate as the are Pokemon in Sw/Sh that seem to be returning that the chart says aren't.

Blastoise, Venusaur, Alola starters and a bunch of mythicals/legendaries. Nothing good/interesting there, just fodder for events throughout the next year. 35 limited event Pokemon isn't a good thing.

Dataminers have also found that we've lost more than 100 moves in Sword and Shield:

002 Karate Chop
003 Double Slap
004 Comet Punch
013 Razor Wind
026 Jump Kick
027 Rolling Kick
041 Twineedle
049 Sonic Boom
082 Dragon Rage
096 Meditate
099 Rage
112 Barrier
117 Bide
119 Mirror Move
121 Egg Bomb
125 Bone Club
128 Clamp
131 Spike Cannon
132 Constrict
134 Kinesis
140 Barrage
145 Bubble
146 Dizzy Punch
148 Flash
149 Psywave
159 Sharpen
169 Spider Web
171 Nightmare
185 Feint Attack
193 Foresight
216 Return
218 Frustration
222 Magnitude
228 Pursuit
237 Hidden Power
265 Smelling Salts
274 Assist
287 Refresh
289 Snatch
290 Secret Power
293 Camouflage
300 Mud Sport
301 Ice Ball
302 Needle Arm
316 Odor Sleuth
318 Silver Wind
320 Grass Whistle
324 Signal Beam
327 Sky Uppercut
346 Water Sport
357 Miracle Eye
358 Wake-Up Slap
363 Natural Gift
373 Embargo
376 Trump Card
377 Heal Block
378 Wring Out
381 Lucky Chant
382 Me First
386 Punishment
426 Mud Bomb
429 Mirror Shot
431 Rock Climb
443 Magnet Bomb
445 Captivate
456 Heal Order
466 Ominous Wind
477 Telekinesis
481 Flame Burst
485 Synchronoise
498 Chip Away
507 Sky Drop
516 Bestow
531 Heart Stamp
537 Steamroller
563 Rototiller
569 Ion Deluge
622 Breakneck Blitz
623 Breakneck Blitz
624 All-Out Pummeling
625 All-Out Pummeling
626 Supersonic Skystrike
627 Supersonic Skystrike
628 Acid Downpour
629 Acid Downpour
630 Tectonic Rage
631 Tectonic Rage
632 Continental Crush
633 Continental Crush
634 Savage Spin-Out
635 Savage Spin-Out
636 Never-Ending Nightmare
637 Never-Ending Nightmare
638 Corkscrew Crash
639 Corkscrew Crash
640 Inferno Overdrive
641 Inferno Overdrive
642 Hydro Vortex
643 Hydro Vortex
644 Bloom Doom
645 Bloom Doom
646 Gigavolt Havoc
647 Gigavolt Havoc
648 Shattered Psyche
649 Shattered Psyche
650 Subzero Slammer
651 Subzero Slammer
652 Devastating Drake
653 Devastating Drake
654 Black Hole Eclipse
655 Black Hole Eclipse
656 Twinkle Tackle
657 Twinkle Tackle
658 Catastropika
671 Spotlight
695 Sinister Arrow Raid
696 Malicious Moonsault
697 Oceanic Operetta
698 Guardian of Alola
699 Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike
700 Stoked Sparksurfer
701 Pulverizing Pancake
702 Extreme Evoboost
703 Genesis Supernova
719 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt
723 Light That Burns the Sky
724 Searing Sunraze Smash
725 Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom
726 Let’s Snuggle Forever
727 Splintered Stormshards
728 Clangorous Soulblaze
729 Zippy Zap
730 Splishy Splash
731 Floaty Fall
732 Pika Papow
733 Bouncy Bubble
734 Buzzy Buzz
735 Sizzly Slide
736 Glitzy Glow
737 Baddy Bad
738 Sappy Seed
739 Freezy Frost
740 Sparkly Swirl
741 Veevee Volley

Signal Beam, Return, Hidden Power, Silver Wind and Magnet Bomb in particular stand out. Removing coverage moves from so many Pokemon. They continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

So much for worrying about the metagame, they took out Hidden Power, that has been a crucial move for generations.



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Darwinianevolution said:

So much for worrying about the metagame, they took out Hidden Power, that has been a crucial move for generations.

There is no counter for Ferrothorn now unless you run a fire-type dedicated to taking it out. Makes so many Pokemon completely unviable as they have no way to fight it.



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RingoGaSuki said:

Dataminers have also found that we've lost more than 100 moves in Sword and Shield:

(...)

Signal Beam, Return, Hidden Power, Silver Wind and Magnet Bomb in particular stand out. Removing coverage moves from so many Pokemon. They continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

Ehh... This is where I draw the line between people complaining over meaningful content being removed, and just Pokémon fans treating any removal as necessarily a bad thing. Let's be real, moves in Pokémon need streamlining. They're a mess. There's so much imbalance between the moves different types get, there's so many pointless useless moves, and there's so many redundant moves (Protect/Detect), you can't say it's a bad thing for them to start getting cut.

What I can't get behind is the selection, specifically. Pursuit is a classic. Signal Beam was a cool move that should've always been more relevant among Bug-types. Feint Attack is just... why, why would you ever cut that? Psywave, Dragon Rage, Mud Bomb... yeah, I don't know why they'd get rid of those, and many more.

I do get behind some choices, though. Return is kinda stupid for how strong it is with no downsides, though to be fair it could've just been nerfed instead of removed. Hidden Power should've never been a thing in the first place, good riddance. Mud Sport and Water Sport, lol.

Still, to go out of your way to cut moves out of Pokémon, and keep Stealth Rock in... ugh.



I'm with mZuzek on this one. The move pool needed to be streamlined; there are a ton of redudant moves that do the exact same thing with different names, there are so many pointless moves that nobody uses, why would Gamefreak waste time animating moves that nobody will ever use? They did make some questionable choices on what they did remove, but let's not forget that they've added a bunch of new moves, it's quite possible that several of the better removed moves have gotten replacements. It's also possible that some of the current weaker moves have been buffed to replace some of these removed moves. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 11 November 2019

mZuzek said:
RingoGaSuki said:

Dataminers have also found that we've lost more than 100 moves in Sword and Shield:

(...)

Signal Beam, Return, Hidden Power, Silver Wind and Magnet Bomb in particular stand out. Removing coverage moves from so many Pokemon. They continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

Ehh... This is where I draw the line between people complaining over meaningful content being removed, and just Pokémon fans treating any removal as necessarily a bad thing. Let's be real, moves in Pokémon need streamlining. They're a mess. There's so much imbalance between the moves different types get, there's so many pointless useless moves, and there's so many redundant moves (Protect/Detect), you can't say it's a bad thing for them to start getting cut.

What I can't get behind is the selection, specifically. Pursuit is a classic. Signal Beam was a cool move that should've always been more relevant among Bug-types. Feint Attack is just... why, why would you ever cut that? Psywave, Dragon Rage, Mud Bomb... yeah, I don't know why they'd get rid of those, and many more.

I do get behind some choices, though. Return is kinda stupid for how strong it is with no downsides, though to be fair it could've just been nerfed instead of removed. Hidden Power should've never been a thing in the first place, good riddance. Mud Sport and Water Sport, lol.

Still, to go out of your way to cut moves out of Pokémon, and keep Stealth Rock in... ugh.

See, that's exactly the point. Streamlining is fine given the bloated movepool we had, but the selection is atrocious. They've removed so many options from a bunch of Pokemon. The Sport moves are fine to be cut, as are other completely unused ones like Camouflage and Synchronoise. But cutting the ones I mentioned above, as well as the many other actually useful ones on that list (Dizzy Punch, Jump Kick, Twineedle, Flame Burst, Steamroller, Mud Bomb, Ice Ball etc) is just stupid. Same as cutting Heart Stamp and Heal Order whilst leaving Swoobat and Vespiquen in the game. They nerfed what were already weak Pokemon even further (Heart Stamp was all Swoobat had over Zubat) whilst leaving the unbalanced crap like SR in. 

Last edited by RingoGaSuki - on 11 November 2019

RingoGaSuki said:
Darwinianevolution said:

So much for worrying about the metagame, they took out Hidden Power, that has been a crucial move for generations.

There is no counter for Ferrothorn now unless you run a fire-type dedicated to taking it out. Makes so many Pokemon completely unviable as they have no way to fight it.

I just checked the list on the front page of this thread. Our choices are so limited with Ferrothorn counters. IMO Arcanine/Ninetales are borderline OU tier, but that's just me being hopeful. Charizard seems to be the only good pick to stop Ferrothorn. 

Volcarona is gone. Talonflame is gone. Heat Rotom isn't anywhere near OU tier, and using him forces people to give up on the insanely OP Wash Rotom. 

Hopefully there are four or five new Fire Poke'mon in Sword/Shield that can take out Ferrothorn. Or some new move that messes him up. 



The sentence below is false. 
The sentence above is true. 

 

Cerebralbore101 said:
RingoGaSuki said:

There is no counter for Ferrothorn now unless you run a fire-type dedicated to taking it out. Makes so many Pokemon completely unviable as they have no way to fight it.

I just checked the list on the front page of this thread. Our choices are so limited with Ferrothorn counters. IMO Arcanine/Ninetales are borderline OU tier, but that's just me being hopeful. Charizard seems to be the only good pick to stop Ferrothorn. 

Volcarona is gone. Talonflame is gone. Heat Rotom isn't anywhere near OU tier, and using him forces people to give up on the insanely OP Wash Rotom. 

Hopefully there are four or five new Fire Poke'mon in Sword/Shield that can take out Ferrothorn. Or some new move that messes him up. 

The table has one error: Talonflame's family did make it to Sw/Sh. Still doesn't really change anything though, the meta is going to be so concentrated.

On the campaign:

So the streamer I've been watching is at the Pokemon League in under 15 hours in a blind run.

There was only a 15 minute gap between beating the 7th and 8th gyms.

There is no Victory Road. Just a simple straight route leading to the league.

What the fuck is wrong with pacing in this game.

Last edited by RingoGaSuki - on 11 November 2019