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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why can't Dems presidential hopefuls pull this much people for any of their rallys? <20,000+

eva01beserk said:
tsogud said:

It's not middle of the road lol it's a tired old conservative talking point that's completely illogical and devoid of facts. While we're on the subject, being "middle of the road" isn't really a stance you're just luke warm and hardly anybody likes that. I'd rather you just be "on the right" and I'm sure some conservatives would rather you just be "on the left."

Edit: the talking point I was referring to didn't get quoted for some reason but just to clarify it was the post Portis quoted earlier about how you think we shouldn't take care of the poor too much or they'll get lazy, something in that vain.

I bet you would like that and many conservatives would to. But unfortunately, its not what we want all the time. You have to cede some times. That attitude of you are with us or against us is what got trump elected. Everyone will not agree 100% on every single issue.

on the edit: Have you ever hear, give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for life? Really old life lesson and pretty easy to understand. 

Well obviously people have to come to compromises but that's not really what I was talking about and it's completely different from the "with us or against us" attitude, which most people can agree is not a good attitude to have. I guess I should've been more clear, my issue is that you can't be "in the middle of the road" on issues/topics because that's not really a stance, you're just luke warm. You can be on one side of the argument and still see the other side but ultimately you have to make a definitive stance and then compromise from there.

That proverb applies to trade skills but it doesn't apply here because you literally can't teach the man anything if he's dead due to him not having access to the healthcare he needed. These social programs like universal healthcare and tuition-free education have been proven to work. People still work when their basic needs like healthcare, education, food and shelter are met because they want a more luxurious life. You don't suddenly become lazy because now you have a place to sleep at night.

Last edited by tsogud - on 24 June 2019

 

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RolStoppable said:
Azuren said:

I mean, why would I take you seriously when your name is literally derivative of one of three "dark" personality traits and means politically unscrupulous? That and you're clearly the type to gloss things over, which I'll prove in just a moment.

But first, the act of assuming my mother isn't a whore? Because it's about context. I get that you're here to be two-faced (not my words, it's simply a verified synonym of your name), but context is pretty important when someone says I assume some are good people. Just based on that fact that he assumes some are good throws a wrench in your analogy, since he's assuming a positive and not simply assuming the lack of a negative. But hey, your name continues to paint a picture of just what exactly you're here to do.

Back to the glossing over things: I never said you were racist. I actually complimented how you were addressing policy instead of just calling him racist. It's gotta be embarrassing when you call someone out for not reading your posts, when that's exactly what you did. And you also assume he wouldn't want someone with more experience in his cabinet, but that's just your bias showing. You don't want to give him any credit, you just want to call him stupid and dumb and not have anyone retaliate.

Less about what you said and more about challenging the moral posturing that goes into effect again Trump's immigration policies. Want a more direct rebuttle? Well, you're aware of when and why those laws went into effect, right? It was a Clinton era law that was set up to stop child trafficking, which was a huge problem at the time. It's also still been upheld throughout Clinton's tenure, as well as Bush's and Obama's. The reason it's an issue now is two-fold: there are record numbers of illegal crossings, so there would obviously be a record number of separations. It sucks, but child trafficking is a terrifying thing. The other reason is because the media is trying to earn their next dollar off of the Trump bump, so they incite people with their ragebait.

Insults aren't a viable substitution for an argument, but I suppose it does help you live up to your conniving name (another verifiable synonym). I didn't make an attempt to "show how you are wrong", because you didn't present anything to prove or disprove. You made a vague blanket statement and called Trump dumb.

Again, you're not making a point. You're just calling him an idiot.

Which is why I said some sources show a positive effect and some show a negative effect, making it something that seems more nuanced than you would probably care to admit.

That's a whole lot of accusations coming from someone with such an insidious name (verifiable synonym). I do enjoy how you didn't deny getting information from Maddow, too. Instead you just double down on the "Trump is dumb" arguments and make the hypocritical claim that I don't know anything just because I don't immediately agree with someone who would call out Trump for being opportunistic when their username is quite literally a synonym for opportunistic. 

It's called a write-in, bub. You can't seriously expect me to take someone as deceitful, dishonest, and treacherous (all verifiable synonyms) as you seriously when you can't even formulate the idea in your head that someone liked Bernie so much they opted to write-in his name? Get a clue, dude, the only reason there is derangement syndrome is because people hear his name and immediately think "gotta shit on this guy, even if I don't have a point to make".

I hope this post was intentionally ironic. Your concluding sentence, as well as the majority of your defense of Trump in this thread, is a complaint that Trump gets attacked for no other reason than his name being mentioned. In the above post alone you attacked Machiavellian seven times because of his username.

See, except more than half of his argument was "Trump dumb". If someone wants to have a discussion on the policies, fine. But if someone wants to break the discussion down to insults over actual deliberation then I'm going to assume that they're just deranged enough to not take seriously on the matter.

Attacked? No. Pointed out that someone who would willingly choose a name with that meaning arguing politics is probably not here in good faith? Yeah, I did that.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

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PortisheadBiscuit said:
eva01beserk said:

Its a middle of the road argument. Does it shock you that somebody can think a little of both is a better option? I know the left belive that if you dont agree with 100% of everything then you must be alt right. But trust me, im in the middle.

You're in the middle eh?? Lol

Mocking the left does not make someone automatically rightsided.



the-pi-guy said:
eva01beserk said:

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/03/01/california-ranked-50th/

Quality of life is the lowest of all states.

Not to mention mass shootings from the highest gun control state.

https://calmatters.org/articles/california-lower-death-rate-gun-control/ 

I like how you used an article titled " California—with tougher gun control—has lower gun-death rate than most states" to show how gun control must not be working.  

The quality of life is rated lowly due to social and environmental factors.  

Environmental factors: are poor because California has around 40 million people in a mountainous environment that holds onto pollution. 

https://www.arb.ca.gov/knowzone/students/airpollu/airpolpage/whyis.htm

Not exactly due to a policy failure.  A policy to change the environment would be ridiculously expensive, if it were possible at all. 

Social is a bit more complicated, but one of the measures is what percentage of people are voting.  A lot of people say they aren't interested or they don't have faith in government.  Which isn't really specific enough to know what's going on.  People might have low faith in government just because their party doesn't tend to win, and people might not be interested because their party does tend to win, for an example.  

Did you read the article? It was very short. The very first paragraph says what I stated, it leads in mass shootings. Lower death rate with guns was not my statement. 

QOL is not rated low due to only social and environmental factors. it mentions it takes those 2 factors into consideration and there is no one on earth that would suggest the environment is bad in California. Its still called one of the most beautiful places and one of the best climates. QOL being so low is due to a lot of other factors, some mentioned in the other rankings, one of them being that while it has the most money due to the big tech giants that are there, the opportunity is also one of the lowest, cuz as mentioned before, that money does not trickle down and the elites live in gated communities while the middle class vanishes and massive poverty strikes the state. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

tsogud said:
eva01beserk said:

I bet you would like that and many conservatives would to. But unfortunately, its not what we want all the time. You have to cede some times. That attitude of you are with us or against us is what got trump elected. Everyone will not agree 100% on every single issue.

on the edit: Have you ever hear, give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for life? Really old life lesson and pretty easy to understand. 

Well obviously people have to come to compromises but that's not really what I was talking about and it's completely different from the "with us or against us" attitude, which most people can agree is not a good attitude to have. I guess I should've been more clear, my issue is that you can't be "in the middle of the road" on issues/topics because that's not really a stance, you're just luke warm. You can be on one side of the argument and still see the other side but ultimately you have to make a definitive stance and then compromise from there.

That proverb applies to trade skills but it doesn't apply here because you literally can't teach the man anything if he's dead due to him not having access to the healthcare he needed. These social programs like universal healthcare and tuition-free education have been proven to work. People still work when their basic needs like healthcare, education, food and shelter are met because they want a more luxurious life. You don't suddenly become lazy because now you have a place to sleep at night.

No, i refuse to believe that I have to be in one extreme or the other on any topic,  no matter what it is. Thats a lousy excuse for people to say im ultimately right and you dont agree cuz you are evil. 

And yes, the proverb does apply, you just have to reach the man before he is on that condition. When he still has options. And the only people who will put the effort if all their needs are met are only going to be the ones who have a chance to reach the very top. If they fail they will give up and settle for free living. Most people dont have a shot at the big leagues so the majority will just accept it and just let life and opportunity pass them by. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

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eva01beserk said:
the-pi-guy said:

I like how you used an article titled " California—with tougher gun control—has lower gun-death rate than most states" to show how gun control must not be working.  

The quality of life is rated lowly due to social and environmental factors.  

Environmental factors: are poor because California has around 40 million people in a mountainous environment that holds onto pollution. 

https://www.arb.ca.gov/knowzone/students/airpollu/airpolpage/whyis.htm

Not exactly due to a policy failure.  A policy to change the environment would be ridiculously expensive, if it were possible at all. 

Social is a bit more complicated, but one of the measures is what percentage of people are voting.  A lot of people say they aren't interested or they don't have faith in government.  Which isn't really specific enough to know what's going on.  People might have low faith in government just because their party doesn't tend to win, and people might not be interested because their party does tend to win, for an example.  

Did you read the article? It was very short. The very first paragraph says what I stated, it leads in mass shootings. Lower death rate with guns was not my statement. 

QOL is not rated low due to only social and environmental factors. it mentions it takes those 2 factors into consideration and there is no one on earth that would suggest the environment is bad in California. Its still called one of the most beautiful places and one of the best climates. QOL being so low is due to a lot of other factors, some mentioned in the other rankings, one of them being that while it has the most money due to the big tech giants that are there, the opportunity is also one of the lowest, cuz as mentioned before, that money does not trickle down and the elites live in gated communities while the middle class vanishes and massive poverty strikes the state. 

California leads in mass shootings when you don't account for population. Which is one of the stupidest ways to compare different areas. If I told you China had 8 mass shooting in 2018 and Belgium had 7 would you really just say "welp that's interesting, China had the most mass shootings, they need to get their shit together" and move on with your day?

From your article: "With another mass shooting in California, number 19 since 1984, the state leads the nation in most deaths from these kinds of violent killings—but only because it is by far the most populous state."

It's no. 20 in economic opportunity, the reason opportunity in general is so low is because of affordability. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california



...

Socialism is wonderful, if every country in the world was socialist every person in the world would have free health care , education , housing , etc. Geez how come nobody though of this before ...



the-pi-guy said:
eva01beserk said:
It has become impossible to have a conversation between the right and the left. I honestly beileve the far left has created this divide. If they don't come to reason we can not meet at the middle. And it's not trump, the left will think its the devil who ever is in leadership if they don't put them there.

@bold.  Nope.  The biggest reason for the divide is because there's a proliferation of media.  50 years ago, there were only a couple of channels, and there were rules that each side had to be represented.  Now with Facebook, there are literally millions of different opinions that can widely be heard by at least dozens of people.  There are also 1000's of channels, politically biased websites, etc.  

@italics.  On the contrary, the "left" has gone to great lengths to meet up in the middle.  Obamacare was based off Republican health care plans, Obama reached out to several Republicans, and even gave them positions in the White House.  To the rest of the world, Democrats are the middle.  In fact, the average Democrats is slightly to the right of the middle.  Republicans on the other hand, are way to the right.  

@underline.  Hardly the case.  The average leftist is very supportive of decent Republicans.  Look at George W. Bush's approval rating.  It was well over 90% at one point, because people on the left were supporting what he did.  Even if in retrospect, they no longer agree, at the time they still thought he was doing right.  

Personally there are only a few Republicans I support less than Trump.  And there were a few, even just in the past presidential election, that I would have gratefully supported if they ended up getting elected.  

eva01beserk said:

Its a middle of the road argument. Does it shock you that somebody can think a little of both is a better option? I know the left belive that if you dont agree with 100% of everything then you must be alt right. But trust me, im in the middle.

Also not the case.

There are some specific issues, that "leftists" will react very strongly to.  Racism and sexism are very big issues for a lot of people.  

But no, you don't have to agree with everything.  People on the left don't even agree with each other.  

How good where the times during obama. To bad that in less than one presidential term thing have changed so dramatically. Even obama called out the left by calling them a circular firing squad. I still remember the ridiculous things obama got accused of and all that other nonsense, but at no point does it compare to the clown show we have now. I honestly believe the left wants war just because trump is oppose to it, it makes no sense at all. So if obama is who you are trying to cling to, remember that obama is also against the way the democrats are behaving now. 

There should never be a topic that makes us irrational to consider it.We are not children...... ok maybe some here are children most likely. But to the adult who will be voting, we always have to at least try to see what the argument is. Every point is up for debate. Or dont you remember a time when black people where inhuman and just trying to something nice would get you in the same trouble and harassment. We cannot close our ears and minds to any argument no matter how horrible they sound at first. again, only children do that, and looking at the news at how COLLEGE!!! students behave when just receiving a little disagreement, that tells me that I should line myself as far away from that party as possible. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Torillian said:
eva01beserk said:

Did you read the article? It was very short. The very first paragraph says what I stated, it leads in mass shootings. Lower death rate with guns was not my statement. 

QOL is not rated low due to only social and environmental factors. it mentions it takes those 2 factors into consideration and there is no one on earth that would suggest the environment is bad in California. Its still called one of the most beautiful places and one of the best climates. QOL being so low is due to a lot of other factors, some mentioned in the other rankings, one of them being that while it has the most money due to the big tech giants that are there, the opportunity is also one of the lowest, cuz as mentioned before, that money does not trickle down and the elites live in gated communities while the middle class vanishes and massive poverty strikes the state. 

California leads in mass shootings when you don't account for population. Which is one of the stupidest ways to compare different areas. If I told you China had 8 mass shooting in 2018 and Belgium had 7 would you really just say "welp that's interesting, China had the most mass shootings, they need to get their shit together" and move on with your day?

From your article: "With another mass shooting in California, number 19 since 1984, the state leads the nation in most deaths from these kinds of violent killings—but only because it is by far the most populous state."

It's no. 20 in economic opportunity, the reason opportunity in general is so low is because of affordability. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california

So were gona have to put buts and exceptions then? ok. then illegal immigrants are the most violent and do the most crimes if you account for per capita  do you agree with that?

Again, with the affordability, with california leading the way in social programs, how is affordability the worst than any other state?



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

the-pi-guy said:
eva01beserk said:

Did you read the article? It was very short. The very first paragraph says what I stated, it leads in mass shootings. Lower death rate with guns was not my statement. 

Yes, but the number of mass shootings is a bit misleading if you don't take into consideration per capita.  

If a state has twice as many people, you'd expect them to have twice as many shootings.  

https://www.statista.com/statistics/811541/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-state/

Per capita, Florida has more mass shootings.  

eva01beserk said:

QOL is not rated low due to only social and environmental factors. it mentions it takes those 2 factors into consideration and there is no one on earth that would suggest the environment is bad in California. Its still called one of the most beautiful places and one of the best climates. QOL being so low is due to a lot of other factors, some mentioned in the other rankings, one of them being that while it has the most money due to the big tech giants that are there, the opportunity is also one of the lowest, cuz as mentioned before, that money does not trickle down and the elites live in gated communities while the middle class vanishes and massive poverty strikes the state. 

From the article that you have used:

"Quality of Life is broken down into the “social environment” category, which includes community engagement, social support and voter participation. The second subcategory is “natural environment,” which includes drinking water quality, low industrial toxins, low pollution health risk and urban air quality."

So, no, QoL in that measurement isn't because of a poor opportunity score, because it wasn't part of the qol score.  

From the usnews article that shows the rankings,

See under opportunity, California does poorly in affordability, and it does fairly well under everything else.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california

From the affordability article, this is what gets ranked:

"One-third of the weight in the opportunity ranking goes to measures of a state’s basic affordability – examining the costs of daily life and housing against the money households have available"

Californians actually make more than most states, the problem is that things like housing are incredibly expensive.  

One reason why housing is so expensive is because the number of people looking for houses outpaces the number of houses.  California literally doesn't build enough houses.  

You're right that the money doesn't trickle down, but that's literally a problem pretty much everywhere.  

In your article is not high in everything else, its only high in health care, natural enviorment and economy. then its middle of the road on education and crime and then piss poor on everything else. 

And you do know why affordability is so low right? Because they refuse to build affordable housing. It has been up for debate many times and always gets shot down. basically meaning that the elites dont want poor people around them. California maybe getting payed more, but they spend on living alone more than what they are receiving extra. like I said before, shouldn't the state leading the race in social programs be doing better with the wealth inequality? the middle class is shrinking by the day and poverty increasing. And a problem that is everywhere but nowhere is it as bad as in california. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.