By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close
sundin13 on 28 June 2022

The Philippines suffers from widespread corruption, especially in the policing system. I'm not sure why anyone would assume that it is a suitable analogue for the USA. This comparison is fundamentally nonsense.



Around the Network
iron_megalith on 28 June 2022
Hiku said:
iron_megalith said:

Ah yes. Ah yes. Completely ignoring the fact that Duterte only sat in office in 2016.


I knew you'd do this!

https://www.r-bloggers.com/2015/02/philippine-infographic-recapitulation-on-incidents-involving-motorcycle-riding-in-tandem-criminals-for-2011-2013/

If you knew that, then you should also know that I'm not suggesting that Duterte invented the gun culture in the country.
He wouldn't have felt comfortable to make that comment in the first place if he was in power in pretty much any developed country.

iron_megalith said:

If a criminal didn't have a gun, they will find a way to get a gun. If there is no criminal, the gun cannot shoot by itself.

Japan doesn't have only 1 criminal per year though, so it's not as simple as 'gun can't shoot itself'.

And not every would-be shooter is going to jump through hoops to get a gun, depending on how difficult/expensive it is.
The goal is to mitigate the instances of these events.

Someone listed a bunch of school shooting in the US, and turns out they all waited until they could buy the guns legally.
If the legal age was bumped up to 21, would all of them have gotten it illegally instead? Or would some of them have cooled off in the meantime? Likely the latter.

By the way, I can also just drop links to articles without explaining a word.
There's a reason people here tend to explain how it pertains to their point as well. Because they have to.

How naive. Really seems like you had a sheltered life to not know what depraved people are capable of. I'm not even talking about depraved as in financially poor people. Just really fucked up in the head. But by all means, just assume everyone that holds a gun are evil people.



iron_megalith on 28 June 2022

So just school shooting now? Last time I checked. Gun violence is Gun violence. lol.



iron_megalith on 28 June 2022
sundin13 said:

The Philippines suffers from widespread corruption, especially in the policing system. I'm not sure why anyone would assume that it is a suitable analogue for the USA. This comparison is fundamentally nonsense.

As if there's no corruption here. Inb4 iT's NoT WIdEsPreAd HeRE.



sundin13 on 28 June 2022
iron_megalith said:
sundin13 said:

The Philippines suffers from widespread corruption, especially in the policing system. I'm not sure why anyone would assume that it is a suitable analogue for the USA. This comparison is fundamentally nonsense.

As if there's no corruption here. Inb4 iT's NoT WIdEsPreAd HeRE.

The USA has it's issues, but it ranks significantly higher in Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index despite a recent precipitous fall. It still is awarded 67 points (higher=better) compared to only 33 for the Philippines.

This and a number of other factors create a very different landscape when it comes to how the law works in each country. The faults in the USA generally come in the form of excessive police action and an unequal judicial system, which are problems, but not similar to the systemic issues that the Philippines has with police commonly being involved in local rackets and over half of private firms paying for private security to make up for this widespread failure. 

To take a snippet from the Risk & Compliance Portal which provides information to businesses regarding the state of various countries:

Philippines:

High corruption levels severely restrict the efficiency of businesses operating in the Philippines. Extensive bribery within the public administration and vague and complex laws make foreign companies vulnerable to extortion and manipulation by public officials. Favoritism and undue influence are widespread in the courts, leading to time-consuming and unfair dispute resolution, and to an uncertain business environment. Corruption plagues the customs administration, and fraud routinely occurs for companies when filing import and export documentation. 

There is a high-risk of corruption when dealing with the police. The national police force is widely regarded as one of the most corrupt institutions in the country (ABS CBN, Jan. 2017). Reports of the police and military engaging in corruption, extortion, and being involved in local rackets are widespread (FitW 2017). Companies report that they cannot rely on the police services (GCR 2017-2018). More than half of firms pay for private security (ES 2015). Businesses rate the National Police’s commitment to fighting corruption as ‘poor’ (SWS 2016).

USA:

Corruption does not represent a significant business risk for foreign investors in the US. The US offers a competitive market and abundant business opportunities; however, companies should be prepared to deal with bureaucracy due to the decentralized structure and business activities governed by federal, state, county and municipal laws. Business costs are increased by extensive anti-corruption legislation and tough requirements for compliance and internal controls. Money laundering, abuse of office, extortion and commercial bribery are prohibited by law. Companies should be aware that the US government actively and effectively enforces the established anti-corruption legislative framework, including the FCPA. 



Around the Network
sc94597 on 29 June 2022
sundin13 said:

Philippines:

High corruption levels severely restrict the efficiency of businesses operating in the Philippines. Extensive bribery within the public administration and vague and complex laws make foreign companies vulnerable to extortion and manipulation by public officials. Favoritism and undue influence are widespread in the courts, leading to time-consuming and unfair dispute resolution, and to an uncertain business environment. Corruption plagues the customs administration, and fraud routinely occurs for companies when filing import and export documentation. 

There is a high-risk of corruption when dealing with the police. The national police force is widely regarded as one of the most corrupt institutions in the country (ABS CBN, Jan. 2017). Reports of the police and military engaging in corruption, extortion, and being involved in local rackets are widespread (FitW 2017). Companies report that they cannot rely on the police services (GCR 2017-2018). More than half of firms pay for private security (ES 2015). Businesses rate the National Police’s commitment to fighting corruption as ‘poor’ (SWS 2016).

USA:

Corruption does not represent a significant business risk for foreign investors in the US. The US offers a competitive market and abundant business opportunities; however, companies should be prepared to deal with bureaucracy due to the decentralized structure and business activities governed by federal, state, county and municipal laws. Business costs are increased by extensive anti-corruption legislation and tough requirements for compliance and internal controls. Money laundering, abuse of office, extortion and commercial bribery are prohibited by law. Companies should be aware that the US government actively and effectively enforces the established anti-corruption legislative framework, including the FCPA. 

Not to get too much in this discussion, but this definition of 'corruption' is very business centric and particularly oriented for foreign businesses where the owners don't reside in the U.S. When you consider things like Civil Asset Forfeiture, policing quotas, etc -- things that largely don't affect a legitimate business person too much the U.S doesn't measure too well. Right now on Facebook there is a police department whose post is going viral which is parading a sports car they confiscated from a "suspect" and the only reason they mentioned the theft is because they were worried people would complain about tax dollars being wasted on it. 

This isn't considered "corruption" because it affects individuals rather than absentee businesses. 



Machiavellian on 29 June 2022
iron_megalith said:

How naive. Really seems like you had a sheltered life to not know what depraved people are capable of. I'm not even talking about depraved as in financially poor people. Just really fucked up in the head. But by all means, just assume everyone that holds a gun are evil people.

Are you not making the same mistake?  There are a lot of gun owners including myself who would love for the US to have stricter laws across the nation making it harder for guns to get into the hands of people like the person who shot someone over to much mayo on their sandwich. Growing up, I lived in a city where pretty much everyone is packing and from experience it does not make you feel safe, instead it makes you paranoid where any encounter you feel you need to pull your gun out first and shoot first or be a picture on a tee shirt.  The thing is once you are in that state of mind, once you pull your gun, you have to use it, because if the other person pulls theirs and you hesitate, you probably end up like Gaige Grosskreutz.  More guns do not solve anything what it does do is create a society where every encounter is a lethal encounter because if the tool you have on hand is a lethal tool and everyone has it, why would you use anything else.  First to shoot is first to live.



sundin13 on 29 June 2022
sc94597 said:
sundin13 said:

Philippines:

High corruption levels severely restrict the efficiency of businesses operating in the Philippines. Extensive bribery within the public administration and vague and complex laws make foreign companies vulnerable to extortion and manipulation by public officials. Favoritism and undue influence are widespread in the courts, leading to time-consuming and unfair dispute resolution, and to an uncertain business environment. Corruption plagues the customs administration, and fraud routinely occurs for companies when filing import and export documentation. 

There is a high-risk of corruption when dealing with the police. The national police force is widely regarded as one of the most corrupt institutions in the country (ABS CBN, Jan. 2017). Reports of the police and military engaging in corruption, extortion, and being involved in local rackets are widespread (FitW 2017). Companies report that they cannot rely on the police services (GCR 2017-2018). More than half of firms pay for private security (ES 2015). Businesses rate the National Police’s commitment to fighting corruption as ‘poor’ (SWS 2016).

USA:

Corruption does not represent a significant business risk for foreign investors in the US. The US offers a competitive market and abundant business opportunities; however, companies should be prepared to deal with bureaucracy due to the decentralized structure and business activities governed by federal, state, county and municipal laws. Business costs are increased by extensive anti-corruption legislation and tough requirements for compliance and internal controls. Money laundering, abuse of office, extortion and commercial bribery are prohibited by law. Companies should be aware that the US government actively and effectively enforces the established anti-corruption legislative framework, including the FCPA. 

Not to get too much in this discussion, but this definition of 'corruption' is very business centric and particularly oriented for foreign businesses where the owners don't reside in the U.S. When you consider things like Civil Asset Forfeiture, policing quotas, etc -- things that largely don't affect a legitimate business person too much the U.S doesn't measure too well. Right now on Facebook there is a police department whose post is going viral which is parading a sports car they confiscated from a "suspect" and the only reason they mentioned the theft is because they were worried people would complain about tax dollars being wasted on it. 

This isn't considered "corruption" because it affects individuals rather than absentee businesses. 

This was an example of corruption, not a definition of corruption. Further, as previously stated, in regards to this discussion, not all corruption or misconduct is the same. My point is largely in regards to how the police in certain countries enable criminality and largely fail to enforce the law. I have argued that the primary issues with the US criminal justice system are overenforcement and unequal enforcement. The Philippines on the other hand suffer from heavy under-enforcement and direct enabling and partaking in criminal enterprises. 



sc94597 on 29 June 2022
sundin13 said:
sc94597 said:

Not to get too much in this discussion, but this definition of 'corruption' is very business centric and particularly oriented for foreign businesses where the owners don't reside in the U.S. When you consider things like Civil Asset Forfeiture, policing quotas, etc -- things that largely don't affect a legitimate business person too much the U.S doesn't measure too well. Right now on Facebook there is a police department whose post is going viral which is parading a sports car they confiscated from a "suspect" and the only reason they mentioned the theft is because they were worried people would complain about tax dollars being wasted on it. 

This isn't considered "corruption" because it affects individuals rather than absentee businesses. 

This was an example of corruption, not a definition of corruption. Further, as previously stated, in regards to this discussion, not all corruption or misconduct is the same. My point is largely in regards to how the police in certain countries enable criminality and largely fail to enforce the law. I have argued that the primary issues with the US criminal justice system are overenforcement and unequal enforcement. The Philippines on the other hand suffer from heavy under-enforcement and direct enabling and partaking in criminal enterprises. 

Would you consider civil asset forfeiture and quotas merely an example of over-enforcement of the law or genuine extortion intended for police and their departments to fund themselves and/or grow?

Like, if police are primarily stopping people to meet ticket quotas rather than say solving murders, how is it functionally different from what happens in the Philippines? Because it is legal? 

It doesn't seem to me that the problem in the U.S is "overenforcement" but rather the laws that enable any enforcement for the sake of profit of the enforcers and those the law actually protects (proprietors) in the first place. 

Last edited by sc94597 - on 29 June 2022

sundin13 on 29 June 2022
sc94597 said:
sundin13 said:

This was an example of corruption, not a definition of corruption. Further, as previously stated, in regards to this discussion, not all corruption or misconduct is the same. My point is largely in regards to how the police in certain countries enable criminality and largely fail to enforce the law. I have argued that the primary issues with the US criminal justice system are overenforcement and unequal enforcement. The Philippines on the other hand suffer from heavy under-enforcement and direct enabling and partaking in criminal enterprises. 

Would you consider civil asset forfeiture and quotas merely an example of over-enforcement of the law or genuine extortion intended for police and their departments to fund themselves and/or grow?

Like, if police are primarily stopping people to meet ticket quotas rather than say solving murders, how is it functionally different from what happens in the Philippines? Because it is legal? 

It doesn't seem to me that the problem in the U.S is "overenforcement" but rather the laws that enable any enforcement for the sake of profit of the enforcers and those the law actually protects (proprietors) in the first place. 

I don't think that civil asset forfeiture is particularly relevant to the discussion, no. You'll have to explain to me how it is, as it seems that we may be having different conversations.