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Rab said:

Your attitude is part of the problem, your one person, but you represent in a way many people that hold back progress, your reduced empathy for peoples social and environment plight, your focus on politics as a sport, and an indifference to a system where nothing gets done  

So if my attitude is the problem, how does yours progress the system.  Give me specifics without all the character BS that leads to wasteful debate.  I am actually willing to hear what you have to say on how can the progressives get the votes needed to push their agenda. I have asked this question multiple times and each time you have totally dismissed it.  Instead, you throw out the character assassination BS because I guess it makes you feel good.  My focus on politics as a sport is that its a complex game that we need to win.  The fact you do not understand the game means you already lost.  You wallow in this empathy part which doesn't mean anything because each individual social and environment plight is different.  You want someone to have empathy for your plight but forget that another person plight is totally different.  Of course I have no empathy for your social, Environmental plight because I have my own.  Every leader caters to their base, every person caters to their needs.  This whole empathy line is pretty much garbage to justify your need to ignore the question.  You present no solutions so its easier to go the character assassination route. To be honest, I really do not mind, I just would love for you to actually answer the question and stop dodging it.  

I get it's a no win situation right now, how did it get here? weak leadership, a broken system, and media more concerned with the nuances of politics than they are on educating the public on the facts of issues and policies to help them, progressive ideas have had a constant fight to even get air time, they have slowly pushed forward over the recent years to see the light of serious discussion

It doesn't matter how we got here, we are here.  So how do you break the chain, by getting stuff done.  You cannot build a house without first building the foundation.  There is no progressive policy that effect people lives to gain traction for future endeavors at the moment. Yeah, they have got all these great ideals but they have a very poor track record in getting them done.  They have not built a foundation of policies they can champion that effect voters minds but instead big spending packages that have no chance of ever making it to first base.  Its like those packages are nice advertisement for a future that will never come because they cannot make the tough choices and pick something to get done and build from there.

If you are waiting on the media to educate the masses, you must live in a privilliage place because when has the media ever done that.  Information is power and directing people through their bias has always been a part of the media.  It doesn't matter if its MSM or your Youtube show or blog.  The ability to understand any topic will always be on the individual because if you ever fall victim of not doing your own research you then just become a puppet for someone else opinion.  This is why I do not waste my time listening to some talking head.  You just allow yourself to be lead by your bias and pretty soon you only find yourself listening to your own echo chamber.  Its interesting how people rail against MSN but then go find some website, Youtube or blog that gives them exactly what they want.  They just replaced one media for another but they are still consuming someone else opinion.  They rely on those sources without out ever going to where they gathered their information to make their own opinion.

In this massively underfunded compromise of $1.5 trillion over 10 years bill, the progressives may feel they cant budge because there is almost nothing left in the compromise and if they do give in it makes it easier to believe in future they will budge again

The progressives will have to continue to budge because its a simple math problem.  They do not have the votes. They can stonewall all they want but who do they hurt in the process.  I actually agreed with them stonewalling the infrastructure plan, they played their hand but in the end, it did not work.  Now they have to work with what they got. Its very evident they are not going to get anything more.  In the future they will still need to budge because they do not have the votes.  Right now they have today, there is no tomorrow if they do not get something done today.

Biden and other influential Senators are really the only hope to move the needle on 2 recalcitrant Dem senators, it's really not a time to play nice 

This shows you have no clue about these 2 Senators.  So what can Biden and these influential Senators do to make these 2 Senators agree to 3.5 Trillion bill. What leverage do they have that will make Manchin and Sinema conform.  Stop with the vague wording and give specifics.  If you have no specifics then this is another empty statement.  I will give you my position.  In order to get these 2 Senators to pass anything close to the 3.5 trillion bill, give them everything they want.  Find out exactly what they truly are in that position to do and give it to them.  Go behind close doors and hash it out.  None of this play nice BS because in order to get something you need to be able to give something of equal worth.  If you do not have something of equal worth then you need leverage on anything that can cause them political harm.  Right now, these 2 Senators hold all the cards not the progressives.  IF they are not giving these 2 Senators what they want then its easy for them to just do nothing.  The Progressives doing nothing accomplish nothing and set them back.  

Issues like Climate cant wait even 5 to 10 years, once we reach the tipping point, even if we later drop carbon emissions to zero the climate will run away in it's own feed back loop, then it's beyond human control, the carbon targets world wide so far are woefully inadequate, even with those targets almost every country is already behind, the US being one of the biggest 

Then the progressives are wasting time.  If the climate is in such an urgent state, then they need to make it the number one priority and sacrifice everything else.  This part you seem to just do not get.  The system is what it is and its not changing anytime soon.  Thus if things need to be done immediately then all other items need to take a back seat and get something done now.  If you only have 1.5 trillion to work with then you need to work with it.  How does doing nothing improve the situation.  How does it accomplish any goals. I still have no clue on your position here, you still seem to be advocating on doing nothing which to me sounds like a losing plan.  What exactly is your position on this subject.  I already stated mine.  Get something done no matter how small because doing nothing will not improve the situation.  If you are not building a platform on success then how can the public acknowledge you way is right.  Its much easier to denounce a dream then it is to denounce a successful action.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59049770 



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Rab said:

Look I'm going to make one last observation, then I'm done as I'm achieving nothing here anyway

How this bill is funded and handled could mean the death of the Dems in coming elections, people were already sceptical about what the Dems could achieve, but if they see that it's the same old 'little to nothing being done' scenario, then it's over for them, the Reps will be back in force 

Like it or not, the Dems survival is at stake with this Once in a Generation Bill    

The narrative that little to nothing is being done is in part being carried by people like you and it is being used to overshadow the truth of just how close we are to monumental progress. I understand the disappointment that compromise is being required right now, but we are literally two senators away from not having to compromise like this. Progressives should be firing on all cylinders to push us over the hump, not pushing the narrative that this is all business as usual and the Dems are going to lose because they are doing nothing.

Like, you acknowledge that this narrative that you are pushing is dangerous, yet you keep pushing it. That baffles me. What is see right now is an opportunity for Progressives to platform on a very real potential for change, but instead they are largely falling into something like fatalism that is only hurting themselves and helping the Republicans.



The Build Back Better Bill is finished, little remains, almost all the Programs it once touted will Not be in this once Hugely Popular Bill, the electorate will be incredibly disappointed and broken hearted by this  

Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema blocking Biden's climate agenda - BBC News 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59060739 

Interesting discussion on how Biden is a big part of the problem here in getting this passed, even his power of executive order was mentioned 

Last edited by Rab - on 27 October 2021

I have had a change of heart. Lets see what happens if the Progressives nix everything. This should be interesting. I hope they have the balls to do it. Personally I still say the play is to give Manchin everything he wants to get some of your big ticket items pushed but lets see if they are actually in the right position to play hardball. My guess would be that no, they are not in the right position because I still believe that Manchin could easily wait on GOP rule to get what he wants done. As far as the waiting game goes, there is nothing really forcing him to do anything. His seat is not up in 2022 so he is in prime stonewalling position. Sinema seat also is not up in 2022 so no pressure there. Manchin voted majority with Trump and the GOP so nothing really forcing him there. What is the leverage Progressives have to get their agenda pushed. If they believe they have nothing to lose, then I hope they are ready to play their last card and expertly play their hand.

I want to see if the Progressives have a plan B, do they truly know how to play the hard ball game. So their backs are in the corner, this will show if they truly have any real political strategy or do they just keep winging it and hope for a good outcome. Go scorched earth and from there lets see how they play the field.

Now my position is that they have absolutely no leverage on Manchin, going scorched earth effects Biden the most and Dems in general that they cannot get anything done. Sinema is something totally different but it seems like she really do not care if she gets reelected unlike Manchin. The jury is still out on her.



Lotta bad news lately, so I just wanna share Katie Porter being as amazing and iconic as ever:



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TallSilhouette said:

Lotta bad news lately, so I just wanna share Katie Porter being as amazing and iconic as ever:

Katie Porter is even more vicious without her whiteboard.



Machiavellian said:

I have had a change of heart. Lets see what happens if the Progressives nix everything. This should be interesting. I hope they have the balls to do it. Personally I still say the play is to give Manchin everything he wants to get some of your big ticket items pushed but lets see if they are actually in the right position to play hardball. My guess would be that no, they are not in the right position because I still believe that Manchin could easily wait on GOP rule to get what he wants done. As far as the waiting game goes, there is nothing really forcing him to do anything. His seat is not up in 2022 so he is in prime stonewalling position. Sinema seat also is not up in 2022 so no pressure there. Manchin voted majority with Trump and the GOP so nothing really forcing him there. What is the leverage Progressives have to get their agenda pushed. If they believe they have nothing to lose, then I hope they are ready to play their last card and expertly play their hand.

I want to see if the Progressives have a plan B, do they truly know how to play the hard ball game. So their backs are in the corner, this will show if they truly have any real political strategy or do they just keep winging it and hope for a good outcome. Go scorched earth and from there lets see how they play the field.

Now my position is that they have absolutely no leverage on Manchin, going scorched earth effects Biden the most and Dems in general that they cannot get anything done. Sinema is something totally different but it seems like she really do not care if she gets reelected unlike Manchin. The jury is still out on her.

I've said it since the election results. Joe Manchin is the most powerful person in the United States government right now. The progressives have no leverage over him. He has ignored, dismissed, and even criticized them time after time. There is no scorched Earth the progressives, or even the entire Democrat House (if they were united, which they aren't), could do if the Senate is 50-50 and Manchin/Sinema don't abolish the filibuster (which they won't, because they are thinking long term).

Also, Sinema is demonstrating a tremendous amount of care about being re-elected. Arizona is traditionally a red state, and most of the people leaving California are conservatives heading to nearby states (or Florida). The only way a democrat keeps that seat is if he/she is considered a national hero by many (like Mark Kelly), or if you appeal toward independents and moderates in the other party. It she didn't care about being re-elected, she'd go full liberal and end her career in the next election. Also, strategist familiar with Sinema see her going full independent in the next election and winning that route. She'd be like the Murkowski of the Democratic party and would no longer have to deal with people harassing her in bathrooms thinking she is a traitor to the party.

Manchin on the other hand, last I read, indicated years ago he only wanted to do one more term (this term he is in being that last one). Now, he may have changed his mind, and defending Republicans is certainly the way he could increase his chances.

As they say, elections have consequences, and the last election was a shockingly good one for Republicans considering what basically every major media outlet and polls were saying up until election day. I still argue if Trump hadn't done what he did then Georgia would have two Republican senators right now. That killed Republican voter turnout in Georgia for the runoff. Regardless, the Dems barely control the House now and don't control the Senate at all (Manchin/Sinema do).

And 2022 forecasts are showing Republicans with at least a slim majority in the House and a decent chance at either 49-51, 50-50, or 51-49 split. 2024 will be a referendum on Biden, plus it will be when most of the Senate seats are democratic ones by far, so if Republicans take back the Senate in 2022 then they will at least keep it until 2026.



Rab said:

The Build Back Better Bill is finished, little remains, almost all the Programs it once touted will Not be in this once Hugely Popular Bill, the electorate will be incredibly disappointed and broken hearted by this 

I honestly think Sinema and Manchin are just stalling until (if/when) the Senate flips. It's their donors. The Democrats knew it was going to be an uphill battle to begin with.

Manchin even said if he were to change to Independent he would still caucus with the Democrats... and McConnell always seem to always know what cards the Democrats are playing.



In my opinion, the one true savior for the Dems is actually Trump. If only Dems were smart with their advertising. I would continue to run adds that he is a loser, that Biden destroyed him by so many votes. The main reason is that it would make him continue to focus on 2020 and continue to make it about himself and the lost. Let him waste his time with audits and threatening the GOP about overturning the elections results for his own personal ego and produce voter turnout like he did in Georgia. As he continue to push the fraud and lies, it just makes the Republican constituents stay home. If you get 5 to 10% with that mentality, it could make a world of difference.



Dulfite said:
Machiavellian said:

I have had a change of heart. Lets see what happens if the Progressives nix everything. This should be interesting. I hope they have the balls to do it. Personally I still say the play is to give Manchin everything he wants to get some of your big ticket items pushed but lets see if they are actually in the right position to play hardball. My guess would be that no, they are not in the right position because I still believe that Manchin could easily wait on GOP rule to get what he wants done. As far as the waiting game goes, there is nothing really forcing him to do anything. His seat is not up in 2022 so he is in prime stonewalling position. Sinema seat also is not up in 2022 so no pressure there. Manchin voted majority with Trump and the GOP so nothing really forcing him there. What is the leverage Progressives have to get their agenda pushed. If they believe they have nothing to lose, then I hope they are ready to play their last card and expertly play their hand.

I want to see if the Progressives have a plan B, do they truly know how to play the hard ball game. So their backs are in the corner, this will show if they truly have any real political strategy or do they just keep winging it and hope for a good outcome. Go scorched earth and from there lets see how they play the field.

Now my position is that they have absolutely no leverage on Manchin, going scorched earth effects Biden the most and Dems in general that they cannot get anything done. Sinema is something totally different but it seems like she really do not care if she gets reelected unlike Manchin. The jury is still out on her.

I've said it since the election results. Joe Manchin is the most powerful person in the United States government right now. The progressives have no leverage over him. He has ignored, dismissed, and even criticized them time after time. There is no scorched Earth the progressives, or even the entire Democrat House (if they were united, which they aren't), could do if the Senate is 50-50 and Manchin/Sinema don't abolish the filibuster (which they won't, because they are thinking long term).

Also, Sinema is demonstrating a tremendous amount of care about being re-elected. Arizona is traditionally a red state, and most of the people leaving California are conservatives heading to nearby states (or Florida). The only way a democrat keeps that seat is if he/she is considered a national hero by many (like Mark Kelly), or if you appeal toward independents and moderates in the other party. It she didn't care about being re-elected, she'd go full liberal and end her career in the next election. Also, strategist familiar with Sinema see her going full independent in the next election and winning that route. She'd be like the Murkowski of the Democratic party and would no longer have to deal with people harassing her in bathrooms thinking she is a traitor to the party.

Manchin on the other hand, last I read, indicated years ago he only wanted to do one more term (this term he is in being that last one). Now, he may have changed his mind, and defending Republicans is certainly the way he could increase his chances.

As they say, elections have consequences, and the last election was a shockingly good one for Republicans considering what basically every major media outlet and polls were saying up until election day. I still argue if Trump hadn't done what he did then Georgia would have two Republican senators right now. That killed Republican voter turnout in Georgia for the runoff. Regardless, the Dems barely control the House now and don't control the Senate at all (Manchin/Sinema do).

And 2022 forecasts are showing Republicans with at least a slim majority in the House and a decent chance at either 49-51, 50-50, or 51-49 split. 2024 will be a referendum on Biden, plus it will be when most of the Senate seats are democratic ones by far, so if Republicans take back the Senate in 2022 then they will at least keep it until 2026.

I pretty much agree with you on that the Dems do not have majority even though it seemed at first.  There were articles last year bringing up both Sinema and Manchin positions and how they would not vote for a lot of the Progressives policies.  I even linked to one of those articles.

The reason I feel that Sinema is not looking for reelection is that I feel that she is trying to position herself for one of those very nice high paying lobbyist positions.  Those positions can pay in the millions and it just seemed she was positioning herself exactly in line.  Now she may also as you mentioned still trying to position for reelection as as well but the things she is pushing for just seems so big Pharma lean that it shows politically that she is entrenched in their pockets.

I also agree that Manchin holds all the cards no matter who is in the majority because if the majority is slim like it is now either Dem or GOP, then him swing vote could as it does now mean everything.