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Jaicee said:
Ka-pi96 said:

huh? I was just making the point that people typically ask for what they like, not what they don't like and that's likely the reason they're not asking for more of the opposite.

Although I don't know why anybody would hate your for saying "misogyny is the cornerstone of gaming culture" to some degree that's absolutely true. Although part of a culture (even a big part) being bad doesn't mean you can't still enjoy different parts of it.

That's fair enough. And you're right, of course just because there's been a lot of sexism in and around gaming doesn't mean I don't enjoy tons of games myself, obviously. Going further, Grand Theft Auto V was mentioned in a video earlier on this thread, and speaking of that...ya know, you'll be less than shocked to find that I consider the general ways in which women are portrayed in that game to be...poor...but this shouldn't be construed to imply that I therefore dislike everything about GTA V. I swear I don't! It's actually pretty much my favorite open world game. But that's not because of the way women are portrayed therein, it's because I can see humanity and value even in a game that doesn't see humanity and value in me. If I didn't embrace that kind of an attitude, there wouldn't be much art or entertainment that I could enjoy at all.

Sorry for going off a bit before. If it hasn't been made clear yet, I don't like situations where I feel cornered, like everyone is against me. I know I'm the only person here who was about to say anything in Anita Sarkeesian's defense and that a pile-on would inevitably result, and to an extent it did, and in that kind of a situation I feel like I have to respond to everything as quickly as possible before it has time to simmer because no one else will and you wound getting caught in that without much merit. Sorry about that.

Anita could say whatever she wanted and I wouldnt complain. The issu' her words lead to actual action to the detriment of gamers and developer's creative freedoms. Not every media is made with you in mind and there will be media you won't like and that's fine, but grabbing a megaphone and yelling it like a protester until you get the desired outcome will make people cranky because they certainly weren't messed with you and (most) of them understand that games and reality are very different. Think of these kinds of game as you would porn: wild fantasies for hormonal (or not so hormonal) boys and men. 



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Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:

That would be a hard sell politically, and I'm sure a lot of Dem Senators (and Dem voters) wouldn't be happy with that decision. If all of the Senate Dems were on the same page pushing for $15 minimum wage, it might still be worth it, but we just aren't there right now.

Looks like a Plan B is now being pushed which provides a penalty on large companies who pay under a certain amount (not yet stated). That penalty would be 5% of total payroll and would increase over time. They are also putting forth a tax benefit for small businesses who pay their employees over a certain amount (I don't believe this number was stated yet either). I think this is a pretty good Plan B and since it is all based around tax changes, it should be able to be included in Budget Reconciliation. 

What's truly pathetic about this situation is that Democratic Senators like Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are being outflanked on their left by a REPUBLICAN Senator who, unlike them, can at least manage to back a full $15 an hour minimum wage. That Republican Senator, incidentally, is Josh Hawley of Missouri, which, like Senator Manchin's West Virginia, is also a rural state with a high rate of poverty and drug abuse and way more Trump than Biden voters. Analogously for Kyrsten Sinema, who opposes a minimum wage increase, you will notice that the other Democratic Senator from her same state, Arizona, Mark Kelly, doesn't seem opposed to the same proposition despite serving the exact same constituency.

Josh Hawley also recently co-sponsored the Protect Women and Girls in Sports Act, while by contrast the House Democrats yesterday made it one of their first legislative priorities, above COVID relief even mind you, to mandate unisex prisons and locker rooms. There's something to be said here about a certain contrast between all that "Republican war on women" rhetoric that the latter have used to obtain political power and what their first policy priorities have been thereafter, at least in my opinion.

Senator Hawley is also widely viewed as positioning himself for a presidential run in 2024. Just making a mental note of options.

I think Hawley declared open war on the notion you can't be conservative and pro-labor, which is the greatest and most damaging predisposition I've seen in Anglo-saxon countries. Conservatives must be free-market people instead of supporting the workers, even though workers are more likely to be conservative unless they belong to a minority group that needs the liberal mindset to not die. 



Jaicee said:

Sorry for going off a bit before. If it hasn't been made clear yet, I don't like situations where I feel cornered, like everyone is against me. I know I'm the only person here who was about to say anything in Anita Sarkeesian's defense and that a pile-on would inevitably result, and to an extent it did, and in that kind of a situation I feel like I have to respond to everything as quickly as possible before it has time to simmer because no one else will and you wound getting caught in that without much merit. Sorry about that.

No need to feel cornered, I agree that back then basically all female characters in video games were sexualized and women had no choice but to complain about this. You guys won as I feel things has gone to far now, game devs are playing it very safe now not trying offend anyone.

Edit: Changed the wording a bit as I think it got out wrong.

Last edited by Trumpstyle - on 27 February 2021

6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

Now that we know Joe biden refuses to overrule the parliamentarian for minimun wage, and he recently firing de-escalating missiles in Syria. This should start angering the progressive left and we might see some action between them and mainstream democrats.

Cenk Uygur a very popular progressive tweeted some time ago instant war if democrats didn't increase the minimun wage to $15 an hour.



6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

Trumpstyle said:

Now that we know Joe biden refuses to overrule the parliamentarian for minimun wage, and he recently firing de-escalating missiles in Syria. This should start angering the progressive left and we might see some action between them and mainstream democrats.

Cenk Uygur a very popular progressive tweeted some time ago instant war if democrats didn't increase the minimun wage to $15 an hour.

Uygur is right. In fact, I would go even further and point out that the polling suggests that the minimum wage increase is popular not only with ideological progressives, but also with self-described moderate voters and independents and even has the support of a large minority of Republicans. At $15 an hour.

I don't think party shills like Sundid and Cyran and Machiavellian understand the political gravity of the Democrats failing to raise the minimum wage under these circumstances. This isn't a "progressive issue" like single-payer Medicare for all or tuition-free college. A minimum wage increase is a bare minimum expectation that Democratic voters have of Democratic presidents. Every single Democratic president we've had from Franklin Roosevelt through Barack Obama has either signed a minimum wage hike into law or else (as in the case of Obama) at least presided over a period wherein the federal minimum wage rose. Bill Clinton (a president notably well to the right of Bernie Sanders) passed a minimum wage hike through a Republican-controlled House of Representatives. When Democrats won back the House and the Senate in 2006 (the latter, incidentally, by a margin no greater than that of their present control today), they managed to get a Republican president, George W. Bush, to sign a minimum wage increase into law by attaching it to a must-pass military funding bill, which incidentally the polling suggested was the single most popular thing that particular Congress did too. It's an expectation. People EXPECT the minimum wage to go up when they elect Democrats because it always does. It's not considered an advanced-level, politically risky demand. Increases have routinely occurred under partisan balances less favorable toward the Democrats than the one they presently face. In a situation wherein the Democrats have the House, the Senate, and the presidency, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for not passing any hike at all, especially for a party that has been billed, and would indeed bill itself, as ideologically more progressive and left-leaning today than in say the 1990s or the 2000s when they managed to pull off the feat.

When I voted for Joe Biden last fall, one of the main policies I was voting for was an increase in my wages as a full-time, low-income worker (barely) living on $9.40 an hour. If I don't get one, I reserve the right to withhold my vote next year. Raising the minimum wage, again, is NOT a radical or dangerous proposition, it's an expectation people have when they vote for Democrats! We're talking about the basic survival needs of some of the very poorest among us here, not an extravagance. If Joe Biden's Democratic Party cannot pull off such a feat in 2021 under these favorable circumstances where Democrats have done so so many times before under less favorable scenarios, that would be a new precedent for the modern era, and it's one I'm not about to excuse or accept. I am in favor of raising hell on this issue. If it proves absolutely necessary, I'm okay with delaying passage of the Rescue Plan beyond March 14th if that's what it takes to change the votes of King Manchin and Queen Sinema. We'll see how their constituents like a lapse in their unemployment benefits over this matter! I hope both of them get primaried.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 27 February 2021

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Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:

That would be a hard sell politically, and I'm sure a lot of Dem Senators (and Dem voters) wouldn't be happy with that decision. If all of the Senate Dems were on the same page pushing for $15 minimum wage, it might still be worth it, but we just aren't there right now.

Looks like a Plan B is now being pushed which provides a penalty on large companies who pay under a certain amount (not yet stated). That penalty would be 5% of total payroll and would increase over time. They are also putting forth a tax benefit for small businesses who pay their employees over a certain amount (I don't believe this number was stated yet either). I think this is a pretty good Plan B and since it is all based around tax changes, it should be able to be included in Budget Reconciliation. 

What's truly pathetic about this situation is that Democratic Senators like Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are being outflanked on their left by a REPUBLICAN Senator who, unlike them, can at least manage to back a full $15 an hour minimum wage. That Republican Senator, incidentally, is Josh Hawley of Missouri, which, like Senator Manchin's West Virginia, is also a rural state with a high rate of poverty and drug abuse and way more Trump than Biden voters. Analogously for Kyrsten Sinema, who opposes a minimum wage increase, you will notice that the other Democratic Senator from her same state, Arizona, Mark Kelly, doesn't seem opposed to the same proposition despite serving the exact same constituency.

Josh Hawley also recently co-sponsored the Protect Women and Girls in Sports Act, while by contrast the House Democrats yesterday made it one of their first legislative priorities, above COVID relief even mind you, to mandate unisex prisons and locker rooms. There's something to be said here about a certain contrast between all that "Republican war on women" rhetoric that the latter have used to obtain political power and what their first policy priorities have been thereupon, at least in my opinion.

Senator Hawley is also widely viewed as positioning himself for a presidential run in 2024. Just making a mental note of options.

So in order to make sure your bigoted views on trans people are advanced, you're willing to back someone who happily and enthusiastically endorsed the insurrection at the US Capitol? Strange take honestly, and disappointing.



Raven said:

So in order to make sure your bigoted views on trans people are advanced, you're willing to back someone who happily and enthusiastically endorsed the insurrection at the US Capitol? Strange take honestly, and disappointing.

First of all, let's be clear about this, I don't dislike trans people as people. It's not a matter of some personal contempt if that's what you're aiming to imply here. But I do definitely disagree with and object to most of the political goals of the gender identity movement for sure, especially to the extent that they are so constructed as to conflict with the rights of women as a sex, as with rights, for example, to privacy, physical safety, fair play, and freedom of speech for instance. While I've gotten used to being labeled a bigot for taking that view, let's just say that I have a different take on who's attitude is bigoted in these situations.

I also spoke about more than only gender identity legislation in the post you referenced. In fact, it hasn't even been the main issue I've discussed here. That is the thing here. I knew what Joe Biden's stance, and that of other Democratic candidates, was on gender identity legislation was when I voted for them up and down the ballot last fall. It was a calculated risk in which I estimated that gender identity legislation was a fight I'd much rather have out than fights over whether or not COVID-19 is a bad thing or whether the army should parade through our streets to suppress Black Lives Matter activists, that sort of thing. I couldn't have guessed though just how high on the list of priorities things like the so-called Equality Act (which I'm actually in favor of in principle, just in amended form) would be. Still, I am not a single-issue voter. One notable area of disagreement is not enough by itself to make me vote differently than I always have. (I have never voted for a Republican before to date.) But when problematic areas begin to pile up and become more numerous, temptation to change my normal voting behavior begins to increase. And that is where the current administration's unprincipled stance on something as basic and normative for Democrats as support for raising the minimum wage adds to this picture in a way that raises my ire.

Yes, I'm a working class woman and I tend to support my own interests both as a low-wage worker and as a woman. Yes, I mentioned Josh Hawley in a positive light to be provocative, but it was for the purpose of highlighting just how poorly the current program and policy trajectory of the Democratic Party serves the interests of people like me because I'm finding it increasingly very disappointing.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 27 February 2021

RolStoppable said:

It's more likely that the Mosou are a case of culture rather than the rest of the world. But what's certain is that you are taking leaps of logic with what I've said, so of course you perceive what I've said as awful; the description of "unalienable, impulsive need to be subservient" is shooting way past the target of female romance fantasies.

I don't know much about the history of the women's movement and I don't think I need to when I make observations about the here and now.

I was about to disagree with you about differentiating between reality and fiction, but ultimately you are talking about something else entirely. My point is that people should not expect real people to be like fictional characters, because otherwise they'll never experience a healthy relationship.

With your last paragraph we are back at the initial point of male fantasies. I will have to say it again that men and women are different. In particular, men's ability to draw a clear line between love and sex is much stronger than women's. That's why it's typically so appalling to women that men consume male fantasy media, because women tend to judge it with their own mindset and arrive at the conclusion that the depicted females are exactly what men want from real women. You condemn it that it only seems to be about arousement while for men that's indeed the entire point why they consume it, but it's actually not even close to the entire scope of what they want from a real woman.

If I've misread what you've intended to say (which is entirely possible) then sorry about that.

Don't think I have a comment on the middle paragraphs.

I also don't doubt that "men's ability to draw a clear line between love and sex is much stronger than women's", at least as the rule anyway, but I also-also can't help but feel that, with your repeated refrain of "Men and women are different", you seem to want to believe that men and women are not merely distinct, but almost a different species. I'm just not convinced that the innate differences between men and women's general psychology are as pronounced as you believe. I think men and women are very similar in most respects and would behave very much alike all in all if simply they were socialized in similar ways. I wouldn't so readily discount the role of culture in exacerbating and magnifying differences in the way we respectively tend to think of ourselves and each other.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 27 February 2021

Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:

That would be a hard sell politically, and I'm sure a lot of Dem Senators (and Dem voters) wouldn't be happy with that decision. If all of the Senate Dems were on the same page pushing for $15 minimum wage, it might still be worth it, but we just aren't there right now.

Looks like a Plan B is now being pushed which provides a penalty on large companies who pay under a certain amount (not yet stated). That penalty would be 5% of total payroll and would increase over time. They are also putting forth a tax benefit for small businesses who pay their employees over a certain amount (I don't believe this number was stated yet either). I think this is a pretty good Plan B and since it is all based around tax changes, it should be able to be included in Budget Reconciliation. 

What's truly pathetic about this situation is that Democratic Senators like Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are being outflanked on their left by a REPUBLICAN Senator who, unlike them, can at least manage to back a full $15 an hour minimum wage. That Republican Senator, incidentally, is Josh Hawley of Missouri, which, like Senator Manchin's West Virginia, is also a rural state with a high rate of poverty and drug abuse and way more Trump than Biden voters. Analogously for Kyrsten Sinema, who opposes a minimum wage increase, you will notice that the other Democratic Senator from her same state, Arizona, Mark Kelly, doesn't seem opposed to the same proposition despite serving the exact same constituency.

First of all, quick reminder that Hawley was one of the leaders in spurring on the insurrectionists who attacked the capitol.

Second, he did not support a "full $15 minimum wage". He supported an unspecified increase in tax penalties for mega-corporations who pay workers under $15/hour (From the data I could find, this would apply to about 700 companies in 2017). It isn't a terrible proposal, but it is largely the same proposal the Dems just made which I discussed earlier (though likely a lot less strict). I also stated at this time, this could make it a lot easier to moderate Dems (and some conservatives) to support given the fact that it would avoid concerns about small businesses. However, it would also have a lot smaller of an effect than a "full $15 minimum wage".



Jaicee said:
Raven said:

So in order to make sure your bigoted views on trans people are advanced, you're willing to back someone who happily and enthusiastically endorsed the insurrection at the US Capitol? Strange take honestly, and disappointing.

First of all, let's be clear about this, I don't dislike trans people as people. It's not a matter of some personal contempt if that's what you're aiming to imply here. But I do definitely disagree with and object to most of the political goals of the gender identity movement for sure, especially to the extent that they are so constructed as to conflict with the rights of women as a sex, as with rights, for example, to privacy, physical safety, fair play, and freedom of speech for instance. While I've gotten used to be labeled a bigot for taking that view, let's just say that I have a different take on who's attitude is bigoted in these situations.

I also spoke about more than only gender identity legislation in the post you referenced. In fact, it hasn't even been the main issue I've discussed here. That is the thing here. I knew what Joe Biden's stance, and that of other Democratic candidates, was on gender identity legislation was when I voted for them up and down the ballot last fall. It was a calculated risk in which I estimated that gender identity legislation was a fight I'd much rather have out than fights over whether or not COVID-19 is a bad thing or whether the army should parade through our streets to suppress Black Lives Matter activists, that sort of thing. I couldn't have guessed though just how high on the list of priorities things like the so-called Equality Act (which I'm actually in favor of in principle, just in amended form) would be. Still, I am not a single-issue voter. One notable area of disagreement is not enough by itself to make me vote differently than I always have. (I have never voted for a Republican before to date.) But when problematic areas begin to pile up and become more numerous, temptation to change my normal voting behavior begins to increase. And that is where the current administration's unprincipled stance on something as basic and normative for Democrats as support for raising the minimum wage adds to this picture in a way that raises my ire.

Yes, I'm a working class woman and I tend to support my own interests both as a low-wage worker and as a woman. Yes, I mentioned Josh Hawley in a positive light to be provocative, but it was for the purpose of highlighting just how poorly the current program and policy trajectory of the Democratic Party serves the interests of people like me because I'm finding it increasingly very disappointing.

Point 1, people say it's bigoted because it 'is' bigoted. We don't get to pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves we're fine with the poor wretches existing but wish they would just stop asking for rights. I would think most people that fall under historically marginalized groups would have some idea what that's like (ie. "I don't hate gay people but I wish they would stop shoving their gayness down our throats", "I don't have a problem with you because you're black, you're not like 'the others'") I just find it impossible to reconcile the two personally. 

Point 2, I don't see the point in making this case with your views with Josh Hawley. A simple look would just make obvious that he's among the same ilk of conservative politicians who are nothing more than provocateurs that try to use their perceived idea of "the left's wokeness" against them through their rhetoric without really offering anything substantial outside of some 'very' minimal and too little too late concessions. Also if you're mad about the Democrats aiming high and falling short, what do you expect from people like Hawley that are already aiming low with their goals?

Point 3, to continue the idea of provocateurs, what is the end game of shining light on someone unwilling to offer substance in their policy to get back at those trying to be a little bit more ambitious but being unable to due to regulations of the body they're serving in. Passing a minimum wage hike along with a COVID-19 relief bill might not be possible now, but can certainly happen down the line or, if needed, actually take these issues to the ballot in 2022 and vote on it instead of making a short-sighted "fuck you" vote towards people like Hawley. 

Last edited by Raven - on 27 February 2021