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I wonder if the democrats will attempt to draft universal unemployment benefits after they're done with universal healthcare.



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I'm liking the Biden foreign policy better for sure. I'm glad we've finally stopped selling arms to Saudi Arabia for their war for control of Yemen, for example, and opted to stop the departure of our troops from Germany. And that we're rejoining, ya know, the World Health Organization and the Paris Accord and just generally being America again and part of the world community after this rather frightening spat of relative isolationism. You won't be surprised to learn that I'm not as big a fan of his executive order that government agencies should consider gender identity discrimination as a form of sex discrimination across the board (thus creating a likelihood of direct conflict between the legal rights of women and trans-identified people), nor to learn of the Senate Democrats' decision Friday to abandon the minimum wage increase that was originally to be incorporated into the upcoming economic stimulus bill in order to try and get some Republican / Joe Manchin buy-in. So domestic policy I'm not as impressed with Biden and the Democrats with as yet.

I want my promised wage! I mean come on now, that's the only measure in the stimulus package with permanence beyond this year and the one that will have the greatest and most lasting impact on my life aside from the obvious increase in funding for vaccine distribution and it won't pass unless it's attached to this bill. Now look, I'm okay with limiting who gets the next round of $1,400 checks to like the poorest 40% of the population or so (which would still include me) and I think Mitt Romney kinda has a point when he points out that on average states have only seen their revenues fall by like 1% since the pandemic began so $360 billion in aid to state and local governments can be seen as gratuitous and reduced. I think those are fair compromises that could be given to the fiscal conservatives. But I'm NOT interested in sacrificing the welfare of the genuinely poor (not least of all myself, frankly) on the altar of "small" business interests.

I'm also none too impressed (nor exactly surprised) that 40 out of the 50 Senate Republicans now all of a sudden are against economic stimulus now that there's a Democratic president and that the other 10 are only offering about $600 billion therein, as compared with the $3 trillion the larger Republican Party offered and signed onto for Donald Trump. They really do treat Democratic presidents differently and I'm NOT impressed by that.


Jaicee said:

[...] nor to learn of the Senate Democrats' decision Friday to abandon the minimum wage increase that was originally to be incorporated into the upcoming economic stimulus bill in order to try and get some Republican / Joe Manchin buy-in. So domestic policy I'm not as impressed with Biden and the Democrats with as yet.

First of all, do you have a source for this? Last I heard, this had not yet been removed, and while there has been resistance to the $15 number, Manchin seems like he would be fine with $11, which is a start and buys some time (as all minimum wage increases are gradual). 

Second, assuming Manchin tosses out any minimum wage increase, what do you believe non Manchin Senators and Biden should have done differently?



sundin13 said:

First of all, do you have a source for this? Last I heard, this had not yet been removed, and while there has been resistance to the $15 number, Manchin seems like he would be fine with $11, which is a start and buys some time (as all minimum wage increases are gradual). 

Second, assuming Manchin tosses out any minimum wage increase, what do you believe non Manchin Senators and Biden should have done differently?

Concerning the Senate's decision to remove the minimum wage increase from the Rescue Plan (as it's formally called) on Friday, this was my source for that information. The Democrats have the chance to add it back in later, but the fact that it was allowed to disappear at all is a bad sign, IMO.

In my last post, I outlined areas that I consider to be acceptable compromises with the fiscal conservatives. This isn't among them. Like I said, if the minimum wage increase isn't included in this specific bill, it won't happen. The Democrats will never be able to pass it separately from this package over a Republican filibuster and Joe fucking Manchin will vote against it for sure if it's not part of a larger package of policies (like the Rescue Plan!) that are important to his political future. It must be part of the Rescue Plan specifically! President Biden and the members of the Democratic Caucus should insist on its inclusion instead of just backing down and selling the working poor out at the first sign of conflict like they did on Friday.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 07 February 2021

Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:

First of all, do you have a source for this? Last I heard, this had not yet been removed, and while there has been resistance to the $15 number, Manchin seems like he would be fine with $11, which is a start and buys some time (as all minimum wage increases are gradual). 

Second, assuming Manchin tosses out any minimum wage increase, what do you believe non Manchin Senators and Biden should have done differently?

Concerning the Senate's decision to remove the minimum wage increase from the Rescue Plan (as it's formally called) on Friday, this was my source for that information. The Democrats have the chance to add it back in later, but the fact that it was allowed to disappear at all is a bad sign, IMO.

In my last post, I outlined areas that I consider to be acceptable compromises with the fiscal conservatives. This isn't among them. Like I said, if the minimum wage hike isn't included in this specific bill, it won't happen. The Democrats will never be able to pass it separately from this package over a Republican filibuster and Joe fucking Manchin will vote against it for sure if it's not part of a larger package of policies (like the Rescue Plan!) that are important to his political future. It must be part of the Rescue Plan specifically! President Biden and the other Democrats should insist on its inclusion instead of just backing down and selling the working poor out at the first sign of conflict like they did on Friday.

Okay, that is largely what I expected and unfortunately there seems to be a lot of confusion about this point, to the extent that it seems like every news outlet is reporting that it means something different. From what I can tell, that amendment effectively means nothing. It gives the chair of the Senate Budget Committee the power to strike out any increases to $15 throughout the pandemic. There are two issues with that: The first is that the chair of the Senate Budget Committee is Bernie Sanders, so it seems unlikely that he would use that power. The second is that nobody had proposed an increase to $15 during the pandemic. To quote the article that you posted:

"In a surprise, Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., supported Ernst’s amendment, which is nonbinding. He spoke on the amendment to clarify that his plan, detailed in the Raise the Wage Act, is to gradually raise the federal minimum wage to reach $15 an hour in 2025 — not immediately increase wages during the pandemic.

'I will support this amendment because nobody is talking about doubling the federal minimum wage during the pandemic,” he said. “We’re talking about gradually phasing it in over a five-year period.'"

To my eyes, this reads as nothing more than political theater than can mostly be ignored, but like I said, a lot of confusion on this topic so I could be wrong.

As to your second point, it seems to be an...interesting strategy. Just trying to bully Manchin into supporting it because it is included in the bigger bill seems like it would greatly increase the risk of catastrophic failure of the bill and an implosion of the Democratic party. I can't say I can really agree to that. If we can't get Manchin on board, telling him to go fuck himself and then losing the vote seems to be suicidal more than anything. 

As for whether it could pass in the future, there is a midterm in 2022 where the Democrats could gain seats in the Senate allowing them to not have to worry about Manchin's objections, but that seems entirely impossible if they torpedo the relief bill now. As previously stated, as minimum wage increases are gradual, if we pass an $11 minimum wage now, we provide the same immediate relief that would be in the $15 bill, with a chance to ride the momentum to a greater increase after 2022. To me, that seems like a much better strategy than attempting to bully moderate democrats.



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dx11332sega said:

They say us dollar gonna be worhless some asian and european countries  because tariff against china

"They" = Zero Hedge, a far right conspiracy adjacent site which unironically posts stories under the pseudonym of "Tyler Durden"

I don't think there is any necessity in dignifying this with a response.



dx11332sega said:
sundin13 said:

"They" = Zero Hedge, a far right conspiracy adjacent site which unironically posts stories under the pseudonym of "Tyler Durden"

I don't think there is any necessity in dignifying this with a response.

Ok, though Youtuber hates trump , IDK what I should do to visit Thailand.I think south america and my parents country honduras can still use dollar? Though I want to know, before it's too late?

It is safe to ignore literally everything they said. All currency still works as normal and will continue to work as normal.



The politics of fear and hate, divide and conquer, us versus them was magnified under the chaotic Presidency of Donald Trump. It will take a long time to recover from Trump's chaos. President Biden is a uniter, a Nation builder and brings hope to America.



sundin13 said:

Okay, that is largely what I expected and unfortunately there seems to be a lot of confusion about this point, to the extent that it seems like every news outlet is reporting that it means something different. From what I can tell, that amendment effectively means nothing. It gives the chair of the Senate Budget Committee the power to strike out any increases to $15 throughout the pandemic. There are two issues with that: The first is that the chair of the Senate Budget Committee is Bernie Sanders, so it seems unlikely that he would use that power. The second is that nobody had proposed an increase to $15 during the pandemic. To quote the article that you posted:

"In a surprise, Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., supported Ernst’s amendment, which is nonbinding. He spoke on the amendment to clarify that his plan, detailed in the Raise the Wage Act, is to gradually raise the federal minimum wage to reach $15 an hour in 2025 — not immediately increase wages during the pandemic.

'I will support this amendment because nobody is talking about doubling the federal minimum wage during the pandemic,” he said. “We’re talking about gradually phasing it in over a five-year period.'"

To my eyes, this reads as nothing more than political theater than can mostly be ignored, but like I said, a lot of confusion on this topic so I could be wrong.

As to your second point, it seems to be an...interesting strategy. Just trying to bully Manchin into supporting it because it is included in the bigger bill seems like it would greatly increase the risk of catastrophic failure of the bill and an implosion of the Democratic party. I can't say I can really agree to that. If we can't get Manchin on board, telling him to go fuck himself and then losing the vote seems to be suicidal more than anything. 

As for whether it could pass in the future, there is a midterm in 2022 where the Democrats could gain seats in the Senate allowing them to not have to worry about Manchin's objections, but that seems entirely impossible if they torpedo the relief bill now. As previously stated, as minimum wage increases are gradual, if we pass an $11 minimum wage now, we provide the same immediate relief that would be in the $15 bill, with a chance to ride the momentum to a greater increase after 2022. To me, that seems like a much better strategy than attempting to bully moderate democrats.

Fortunately, the House of Representatives appears to disagree with your sentiment, as, at the insistence of the House Progressive Caucus, a $15/hour minimum wage increase reappeared in the Education and Labor Committee's first draft of their part of the COVID-19 relief bill earlier today (Monday), three days after the Senate dropped the minimum wage increase from their planning of the legislation and after President Biden said that he didn't expect the minimum wage hike to be included in the final bill. So it's back in the bill now, in other words.

The House earlier today also rejected Joe Manchin's proposal to reduce the maximum income threshold for $1,400 stimulus checks from households with 2019 incomes of $75,000 a year to only those with 2019 household incomes of $50,000 a year or less because, as House Progressive Caucus Chairwoman Pramila Jayapal has pointed out, 2019 was before the recession and as such doesn't come close to gauging what someone's economic status might be today (which is a good point that has convinced me there should be no eligibility cut relative to previous relief packages).

I find these new developments more reassuring, personally.

While you may be comfortable waiting another two years to see if Democrats win more Congressional seats in 2022 for the minimum wage debate, I'm not because it's my stomach! Do you know what it's like to go hungry? It's not fun and I'm tired of experiencing that quite as often as I do. I'm tired of relying on charity and government aid and the woods for food. I'm tired of not being able to pay bills on time, of watching the tiles fall off the wall of my shower, of seeing the cracks in my walls and windows just keep getting larger and larger, of washing my clothes and dishes by hand when most Americans have washers, dryers, and dishwashers, of fighting to start the car engine in the mornings. I'm sorry you don't like my swearing, but I'm just fucking sick of living like this! I work my goddamn ass off! Maybe it's egotistical of me, considering the kind of work that I do, but I can't help feeling that service workers deserve some kind of dignity too. Simple stuff like a pay increase (that I guarantee my employer ain't supplyin' voluntarily despite this having been their most profitable year ever) can make a world of difference and this is the only way I see that happening for me and it can't happen soon enough! That's all I'm saying. Sorry for prioritizing working people's actual human needs over parliamentary maneuvering. And I'm sorry for saying rude things about Joe Manchin. I just find it hard to respect millionaire Senators who don't respect people like me.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 09 February 2021

Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:

Okay, that is largely what I expected and unfortunately there seems to be a lot of confusion about this point, to the extent that it seems like every news outlet is reporting that it means something different. From what I can tell, that amendment effectively means nothing. It gives the chair of the Senate Budget Committee the power to strike out any increases to $15 throughout the pandemic. There are two issues with that: The first is that the chair of the Senate Budget Committee is Bernie Sanders, so it seems unlikely that he would use that power. The second is that nobody had proposed an increase to $15 during the pandemic. To quote the article that you posted:

"In a surprise, Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., supported Ernst’s amendment, which is nonbinding. He spoke on the amendment to clarify that his plan, detailed in the Raise the Wage Act, is to gradually raise the federal minimum wage to reach $15 an hour in 2025 — not immediately increase wages during the pandemic.

'I will support this amendment because nobody is talking about doubling the federal minimum wage during the pandemic,” he said. “We’re talking about gradually phasing it in over a five-year period.'"

To my eyes, this reads as nothing more than political theater than can mostly be ignored, but like I said, a lot of confusion on this topic so I could be wrong.

As to your second point, it seems to be an...interesting strategy. Just trying to bully Manchin into supporting it because it is included in the bigger bill seems like it would greatly increase the risk of catastrophic failure of the bill and an implosion of the Democratic party. I can't say I can really agree to that. If we can't get Manchin on board, telling him to go fuck himself and then losing the vote seems to be suicidal more than anything. 

As for whether it could pass in the future, there is a midterm in 2022 where the Democrats could gain seats in the Senate allowing them to not have to worry about Manchin's objections, but that seems entirely impossible if they torpedo the relief bill now. As previously stated, as minimum wage increases are gradual, if we pass an $11 minimum wage now, we provide the same immediate relief that would be in the $15 bill, with a chance to ride the momentum to a greater increase after 2022. To me, that seems like a much better strategy than attempting to bully moderate democrats.

Fortunately, the House of Representatives appears to disagree with your sentiment, as, at the insistence of the House Progressive Caucus, a $15/hour minimum wage increase reappeared in the Education and Labor Committee's first draft of their part of the COVID-19 relief bill earlier today (Monday), three days after the Senate dropped the minimum wage increase from their planning of the legislation and after President Biden said that he didn't expect the minimum wage hike to be included in the final bill. So it's back in the bill now, in other words.

The House earlier today also rejected Joe Manchin's proposal to reduce the maximum income threshold for $1,400 stimulus checks from households with 2019 incomes of $75,000 a year to only those with 2019 household incomes of $50,000 a year or less because, as House Progressive Caucus Chairwoman Pramila Jayapal has pointed out, 2019 was before the recession and as such doesn't come close to gauging what someone's economic status might be today (which is a good point that has convinced me there should be no eligibility cut relative to previous relief packages).

I find these new developments more reassuring, personally.

While you may be comfortable waiting another two years to see if Democrats win more Congressional seats in 2022 for the minimum wage debate, I'm not because it's my stomach! Do you know what it's like to go hungry? It's not fun and I'm tired of experiencing that quite as often as I do. I'm tired of relying on charity and government aid and the woods for food. I'm tired of not being able to pay bills on time, of watching the tiles fall off the wall of my shower, of seeing the cracks in my walls and windows just keep getting larger and larger, of washing my clothes and dishes by hand when most Americans have washers, dryers, and dishwashers, of fighting to start the car engine in the mornings. I'm sorry you don't like my swearing, but I'm just fucking sick of living like this! I work my goddamn ass off! Maybe it's egotistical of me, considering the kind of work that I do, but I can't help feeling that service workers deserve some kind of dignity too. Simple stuff like a pay increase (that I guarantee my employer ain't supplyin' voluntarily despite this having been their most profitable year ever) can make a world of difference and this is the only way I see that happening for me and it can't happen soon enough! That's all I'm saying. Sorry for prioritizing working people's actual human needs over parliamentary maneuvering. And I'm sorry for saying rude things about Joe Manchin. I just find it hard to respect millionaire Senators who don't respect people like me.

Actually reading that article, the house does not disagree with Sundin its pretty much the same situation.  The Dems are looking for ways to do the increase where they do not have to worry about GOP votes but they would still need to get every Dem vote within the Senate to still pass any bill with a federal wage increase of 15 dollars by 2025.  Also I believe you are not understand Sundin and what he is saying.  In politics there are many ways to get to a goal but not all of them use a stick to beat their way there. Either way, nothing is still set.  You will still have to convince all senate Dems that increasing the Minumin wage to 15 by 2025 is the move to make especially if some of those senators are up in 2022 because if they are there from more conservative states, they may not move forward depending on how these changes fit with their constitutes.  It really do not matter how you feel about the situation, its still politics.  To gain the majority in the Senate only to lose it in 2 years is something that will be in play whether you like it or not.  Its how the game is played.