Also, as an aside and regardless of the numbers of black vs white deaths at the hands of 'police force' and the inherent racism in the system, shouldn't we all be agreeing at the end of the day that NOBODY should be shot in the back or killed by police when they're not a threat? Black, white, hispanic, asian, it doesn't matter. there is, of course, an element of truth to the idea that, in a line of work such as law enforcement, you are susceptible to more violence and risks and thus the chances of 'shit happening' is higher. I get that, I really do. Nobody is saying the job of a police officer is easy, nobody's saying it's without risks, and nobody is saying it is without the occasional fuckup.

Nobody in their right mind expects perfection in a field so fraught with danger and risk and stress.

The difference here is that we should be keeping cops - you know, the people in charge of maintaining law, order, and balance in the world - to a higher standard. All this stuff I'm reading on how much training is needed is abhorrent. We DO need to put them to a higher standard. You wouldn't hire a surgeon who hadn't yet proven himself, would you? Yeah, even the best surgeons can fail, sometimes even the smallest thing can result in death, but that's why we put doctors thouth 10+ years of schooling and tesing and require them to get layers of education to be allowed to practice in a field that could save or end lives. While being a police officer does NOT hold the same level of scrutiny and education requirements, it's still a job where physical and mental and emotional stability are paramount, and we've seen the reality of the inherent bias in the system with the disproportionate number of black murders by the police. That's just facts.

The numbers of white vs black killed by cops, relative to the number of whites vs blacks in the population is horribly onesided. The sentencing is onesided. While yes, there are instances of white folks being gunned down when not a threat and black folks being taken in safely while dangerous, the numbers don't lie and it is a fact that black men are treated with more hostility and are seen as a threat with far greater frequency (relative to their population) than white people. KLXVer and Zoombael and LonelyDolphin can argue to the contrary all they want, but they are unequivocally, provably, statistically, ethically, and morally wrong on the matter. This isn't a partisan issue, it's hard numbers and reality. They do not deserve equal consideration in the argument. There is a right and a wrong answer here. Anyone trying to twist the narrative so that this is seen as somehow equal is provably wrong. That's not up for debate.

And yes, I know all three of them (And others) will try to pull up articles and other bullshit to prove their point, but keep in mind anyone could argue any point, even if it's historically, factually wrong. I could argue that cigarettes are good because blah blah economy and blah blah tax dollars. I'm not going to directly engage with them, because doing so gives their faulty, logic-free arguments power. I know that, to them, this might seem like I just don't have the chops to argue with their ironclad arguments, but the reality is that I don't wish to engage with certain people on an issue that is of actual consequence. Directly engaging with them makes it seem like their points are valid when they're not. Giving them half this thread to push their faulty narratives and decry any attempt to address this very real, very disheartening issue is doing actual damage to the social fabric of the world. Engaging with them is doing a disservice to the issues at hand, so I will not be responding to any of their inevitably biased, poorly researched, bipartisan responses.

I am aware this will get me a tonne of scorn, but with certain people in a game of politics, the only way to win is not to play. I do still wish to discuss the issues, but not with people who see this as an SJW propaganda issue as opposed to those who rightly see this as a human rights issue.



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KLXVER said:
Runa216 said:

Jesus fucking Christ. NOBODY IS SAYING THIS DOESN'T ALSO HAPPEN TO WHITE PEOPLE. It's bad no matter who it happens to, it just so happens to be that it happens far more often (When balanced against the population numbers of black, white, and  hispanic) to black people. 

according to the US Census:

White people in US: 76.3%
Black people in US: 13.4%

Of course there will be more white people killed by the use of police force. That's how numbers works. Unless it's 5.7x the number of black people killed by cops (it's not), then black people are being disproportionately killed by cops (They are).

Take 2017 for instance. 457 white people killed by lethal force by police. 223 black people. That's about 2x as much when, if your narrative was held up, it would need to be 5.7x as many white people killed.

2018: 399 white vs 209 black. LESS than 2x the deaths.
2019: 370 white vs 235 black. about 1.5x the deaths.

IF you want true equality, then either the white numbers need to be 1,267 in 2017, 1,189 in 2018, and 1,337 in 2019. Or, conversely, the black numbers should be 80 in 2017, 70 in 2018, and 65 in 2019.

Stop trying to pretend systemic racism doesn't exist just because it hasn't affected you or that it's inconvenient (Or unless you are subtly okay with it and just don't want to admit it).

Soure: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

 

https://nationalvanguard.org/2018/09/america-race-and-violent-crime/

Really? Gonna use stats from nationalvanguard: "National Vanguard is an American white nationalistneo-Nazi organization based in Charlottesville, Virginia, founded in 2005 by Kevin Alfred Strom and former members of the National Alliance"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vanguard_(American_organization)

You should REALLY chose your resources better. 

**Edit** if anyone is curious, I did not actively search for 'is this resource bad', I literally googled 'is nationalvanguard a nonbiased source'. The entirety of the first page clarified that it was, in fact, a white nationalist, neo-nazi organization. I've been making efforts to only use and cite nonbiased resources. when google searching, I do not word my queries to specifically support my theory or disprove someone else's. I always look for the most neutral but informative information I can get. I search 'studies on the effect of...' not 'is this thing good or bad...?' This is a very important skill, one many in this thread and who engage in political discourse should look into. 

Last edited by Runa216 - on 27 August 2020

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KLXVER said:
Runa216 said:

Jesus fucking Christ. NOBODY IS SAYING THIS DOESN'T ALSO HAPPEN TO WHITE PEOPLE. It's bad no matter who it happens to, it just so happens to be that it happens far more often (When balanced against the population numbers of black, white, and  hispanic) to black people. 

according to the US Census:

White people in US: 76.3%
Black people in US: 13.4%

Of course there will be more white people killed by the use of police force. That's how numbers works. Unless it's 5.7x the number of black people killed by cops (it's not), then black people are being disproportionately killed by cops (They are).

Take 2017 for instance. 457 white people killed by lethal force by police. 223 black people. That's about 2x as much when, if your narrative was held up, it would need to be 5.7x as many white people killed.

2018: 399 white vs 209 black. LESS than 2x the deaths.
2019: 370 white vs 235 black. about 1.5x the deaths.

IF you want true equality, then either the white numbers need to be 1,267 in 2017, 1,189 in 2018, and 1,337 in 2019. Or, conversely, the black numbers should be 80 in 2017, 70 in 2018, and 65 in 2019.

Stop trying to pretend systemic racism doesn't exist just because it hasn't affected you or that it's inconvenient (Or unless you are subtly okay with it and just don't want to admit it).

Soure: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

 

https://nationalvanguard.org/2018/09/america-race-and-violent-crime/

Oh good, a link without any of your own context. And hey, guess what a quick google taught me about your source:

"National Vanguard is an American white nationalistneo-Nazi organization based in Charlottesville, Virginia, founded in 2005 by Kevin Alfred Strom and former members of the National Alliance."

Could you cite something not from a neo-nazi organization or maybe even tell us your thoughts yourself instead of your favorite links from stormfront?

Edit: You got me this time, Runa. But you watch it. We'll see who googles faster next time. 



...

Runa216 said:
KLXVER said:

 

https://nationalvanguard.org/2018/09/america-race-and-violent-crime/

Really? Gonna use stats from nationalvanguard: "National Vanguard is an American white nationalistneo-Nazi organization based in Charlottesville, Virginia, founded in 2005 by Kevin Alfred Strom and former members of the National Alliance"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vanguard_(American_organization)

I just searched and that is what came up. Dont take their words for it. Use the Bureau of Justice Statistics that they got their information from.



KLXVER said:
Runa216 said:

Really? Gonna use stats from nationalvanguard: "National Vanguard is an American white nationalistneo-Nazi organization based in Charlottesville, Virginia, founded in 2005 by Kevin Alfred Strom and former members of the National Alliance"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vanguard_(American_organization)

I just searched and that is what came up. Dont take their words for it. Use the Bureau of Justice Statistics that they got their information from.

Don't be a coward, just say "I think that black people get shot to a disproportionate degree because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime" so we can move on and have a discussion from that point instead of this wishy washy bullshit. 

Edit: Try to do it without the "despite" quote though, that will probably help. 



...

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KLXVER said:
Runa216 said:

Really? Gonna use stats from nationalvanguard: "National Vanguard is an American white nationalistneo-Nazi organization based in Charlottesville, Virginia, founded in 2005 by Kevin Alfred Strom and former members of the National Alliance"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vanguard_(American_organization)

I just searched and that is what came up. Dont take their words for it. Use the Bureau of Justice Statistics that they got their information from.

Therein lies your problem and why I'm so averse to the idea of engaging with you. you google searched, took the first resource you found that supported your claim, and didn't to any research to see if your source was reliable and unbiased. If you actually presented information or views from those who could be trusted, I'd respect the points you push more. 

This is entirely why this sort of topic is so volatile. 

And yes, I used to be the same way. I used to do the same 'search until you find a source that agrees with me' kind of person. That's not how proper debate and discussion is made. That's how inflammatory arguments and tribalism is perpetuated. Please do better.



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Torillian said:
KLXVER said:

I just searched and that is what came up. Dont take their words for it. Use the Bureau of Justice Statistics that they got their information from.

Don't be a coward, just say "I think that black people get shot to a disproportionate degree because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime" so we can move on and have a discussion from that point instead of this wishy washy bullshit. 

Edit: Try to do it without the "despite" quote though, that will probably help. 

Well thats what I get for trying to prove my opinion instead of just saying it. People dont want to see it and a racist website is the first thing that shows up when searching for stats.lol

Its just a bit hard to come out and say it sometimes. I know its statistically correct, but its an uncomfortable truth.



Torillian said:
KLXVER said:

I just searched and that is what came up. Dont take their words for it. Use the Bureau of Justice Statistics that they got their information from.

Don't be a coward, just say "I think that black people get shot to a disproportionate degree because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime" so we can move on and have a discussion from that point instead of this wishy washy bullshit. 

Edit: Try to do it without the "despite" quote though, that will probably help. 

That long post I made with the numbers in 2017, 2018, and 2019 was one I initially researched for a reddit thread a week or so ago. someone actually did say 'well blacks are more prone to crime and that's why they're justifiably persecuted more'. I just noped the fuck outta that topic. I can't engage with such blatantly bigoted a narrative. 



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KLXVER said:
Torillian said:

Don't be a coward, just say "I think that black people get shot to a disproportionate degree because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime" so we can move on and have a discussion from that point instead of this wishy washy bullshit. 

Edit: Try to do it without the "despite" quote though, that will probably help. 

Well thats what I get for trying to prove my opinion instead of just saying it. People dont want to see it and a racist website is the first thing that shows up when searching for stats.lol

Its just a bit hard to come out and say it sometimes. I know its statistically correct, but its an uncomfortable truth.

This SHOULD be a learning opportunity for you to be better. When you are citing resources from a literal neo-nazi site, maybe that should tell you that your views are...wrong? I mean, I wouldn't want to be associated with nazis, do you? 



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Runa216 said:
KLXVER said:

Well thats what I get for trying to prove my opinion instead of just saying it. People dont want to see it and a racist website is the first thing that shows up when searching for stats.lol

Its just a bit hard to come out and say it sometimes. I know its statistically correct, but its an uncomfortable truth.

This SHOULD be a learning opportunity for you to be better. When you are citing resources from a literal neo-nazi site, maybe that should tell you that your views are...wrong? I mean, I wouldn't want to be associated with nazis, do you? 

Oh stop it. It was an honest mistake. I dont have stats on violent crimes just laying around.