LurkerJ said:
sundin13 said:

My respect for Kyle Kulinski and Krystal Ball and Ben Shapiro isn't much higher than my respect for Candace Owens, but at least I don't find their frequent idiocy to be quite as dangerous as Candace Owens'.

And by the way, there are a ton of idiots who have a large audience. That doesn't prove anything. All it proves is that people buy what they are selling, which is more often some flavor of Kool-Aid than strong arguments. 

I know,CNN and MSNBC, and Fox are perfect examples of that as I clearly mentioned in my post. And you think some irrelevant youtuber is more dangerous than these channels? Don't make me laugh. 

As for your respect, or lack of, doesn't mean much when you haven't told us what pieces of news you read or watch. It's easy to be dismissive but in the end, one way or another, what you watch or read is just as easy to dismiss. 

I don't think I said that I feel Candace Owens is more dangerous than CNN/MSNBC/FOX. I would appreciate if you didn't put words in my mouth. That would be great.

As for what pieces of news I read/watch, I typically don't listen to any opinion pundits. This type of punditry is only valuable when an individual demonstrates consistently that they speak in good faith and their opinions are supported by evidence that they are fairly portraying. Of the individuals listed who I am familiar with, none of them have sufficiently demonstrated this. As such, I try to form my own opinions based not on the opinions of others, but on the evidence itself. Depending on the specific subject we are talking about, I will often seek out scientific studies which provide empirical evidence regarding this subject as opposed to listening to someone's anecdotal, half-formed opinions which have been filtered through the lens of whatever ideology they are trying to sell. 

But I think that is all largely besides the point. An individual's idiotic and dangerous takes can be criticized without holding up another individual whose takes are better. Even in a world where everyone is wrong, reality does not change. Even in a world where everyone is wrong, Candace Owens does not suddenly gain merit. 



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sundin13 said:
LurkerJ said:

I know,CNN and MSNBC, and Fox are perfect examples of that as I clearly mentioned in my post. And you think some irrelevant youtuber is more dangerous than these channels? Don't make me laugh. 

As for your respect, or lack of, doesn't mean much when you haven't told us what pieces of news you read or watch. It's easy to be dismissive but in the end, one way or another, what you watch or read is just as easy to dismiss. 

I don't think I said that I feel Candace Owens is more dangerous than CNN/MSNBC/FOX. I would appreciate if you didn't put words in my mouth. That would be great.

As for what pieces of news I read/watch, I typically don't listen to any opinion pundits. This type of punditry is only valuable when an individual demonstrates consistently that they speak in good faith and their opinions are supported by evidence that they are fairly portraying. Of the individuals listed who I am familiar with, none of them have sufficiently demonstrated this. As such, I try to form my own opinions based not on the opinions of others, but on the evidence itself. Depending on the specific subject we are talking about, I will often seek out scientific studies which provide empirical evidence regarding this subject as opposed to listening to someone's anecdotal, half-formed opinions which have been filtered through the lens of whatever ideology they are trying to sell. 

But I think that is all largely besides the point. An individual's idiotic and dangerous takes can be criticized without holding up another individual whose takes are better. Even in a world where everyone is wrong, reality does not change. Even in a world where everyone is wrong, Candace Owens does not suddenly gain merit. 

Italics: so basically you do what I do and what many of us do. I never said my opinions are based on the opinions of others, I said my opinions happen to align more with x and y. Not to mention, I specifically mentioned that I happen to disagree with everyone. I listen to different pundits from all sides because I am humble to enough to accept that my views might be wrong or there is some certain angle that I might not be seeing. In the end, you are not doing anything differently. 

As for Candace, she's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, an irrelevant person can hardly be dangerous, and pointing out the ironic attitude of selectively shunning down dangerous sources of news and opinions and ignoring those that actually shape public opinions in the US is not a defense of Candace. 



LurkerJ said:
sundin13 said:

I don't think I said that I feel Candace Owens is more dangerous than CNN/MSNBC/FOX. I would appreciate if you didn't put words in my mouth. That would be great.

As for what pieces of news I read/watch, I typically don't listen to any opinion pundits. This type of punditry is only valuable when an individual demonstrates consistently that they speak in good faith and their opinions are supported by evidence that they are fairly portraying. Of the individuals listed who I am familiar with, none of them have sufficiently demonstrated this. As such, I try to form my own opinions based not on the opinions of others, but on the evidence itself. Depending on the specific subject we are talking about, I will often seek out scientific studies which provide empirical evidence regarding this subject as opposed to listening to someone's anecdotal, half-formed opinions which have been filtered through the lens of whatever ideology they are trying to sell. 

But I think that is all largely besides the point. An individual's idiotic and dangerous takes can be criticized without holding up another individual whose takes are better. Even in a world where everyone is wrong, reality does not change. Even in a world where everyone is wrong, Candace Owens does not suddenly gain merit. 

Italics: so basically you do what I do and what many of us do. I never said my opinions are based on the opinions of others, I said my opinions happen to align more with x and y. Not to mention, I specifically mentioned that I happen to disagree with everyone. I listen to different pundits from all sides because I am humble to enough to accept that my views might be wrong or there is some certain angle that I might not be seeing. In the end, you are not doing anything differently. 

As for Candace, she's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, an irrelevant person can hardly be dangerous, and pointing out the ironic attitude of selectively shunning down dangerous sources of news and opinions and ignoring those that actually shape public opinions in the US is not a defense of Candace. 

Hey, if we agree, great. But again, that doesn't make Candace Owens less of an idiot. That's my thesis statement here. If you don't disagree with that point, I'm not really sure what there is to talk about here.



sundin13 said:
LurkerJ said:

I watched some of this debate the other day. Am I a Candace Owens fan? No. Do I support her? No. Do my views align with her? No. Does that mean everything she says is wrong and laughable? No. At least, no more laughable than the reporters on CNN, MSNBC or Fox news, who are supposed to be professionally trained reporters.

I listen to everyone and I manage to agree and disagree with everyone. If anything, My views are aligned with the likes of Kyle, Krystal and Jeremy Scahill, all lefties. But I still have room to listen to Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder and many others on the right, and like it or not, they do bring up great and challenging counter arguments as well as weak ones, that's why they have massive audience. 

"Ew how dare you listen to these people, I can't hear them over the sound of my CNN" crowd couldn't be more ironic if they tried. 

My respect for Kyle Kulinski and Krystal Ball and Ben Shapiro isn't much higher than my respect for Candace Owens, but at least I don't find their frequent idiocy to be quite as dangerous as Candace Owens'.

And by the way, there are a ton of idiots who have a large audience. That doesn't prove anything. All it proves is that people buy what they are selling, which is more often some flavor of Kool-Aid than strong arguments. 

PS: I wouldn't wish an hour long clip of Candace Owens on my worst enemy...

Honestly, I have no idea who Candace Owens is...but if she's even worse than Ben SHapiro - that absolutely disgusting filth rag of contemptuous debate tactics and disgusting smugness - then I don't want to know. 



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My opinion on the BLM movement is conflicted. The whole thing started from a conflict in which we don't even know if it had anything to do with race. Even so, it did bring the topic of systematic racism to the forefront. I initially brushed that off as lol wut that's been over, but after hearing people talk about it, it may be true that we no longer have laws/rules/policies/etc. that explicitly discriminate afaik, but the long term effects of slaverly have not been addressed properly. The free'd slaves started with nothing, and the starting hand is everything unless you're lucky, which clearly most blacks aren't. Even so, I'd prefer the issue were about poor people in general even if other races don't have the same history.

However, the riots n looters, the shaming of all police, racisim towards whites, lol Chaz, I don't support any of that. Really don't see how destroying black owned businesses and killing black people shows that black lives matter. If you must be stupid n violent, at the very least direct it towards those who have wronged you. Toppling statues doesn't do anything either, all this will only turn sensible people that could be persuaded away.



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Lonely_Dolphin said:
My opinion on the BLM movement is conflicted. The whole thing started from a conflict in which we don't even know if it had anything to do with race. Even so, it did bring the topic of systematic racism to the forefront. I initially brushed that off as lol wut that's been over, but after hearing people talk about it, it may be true that we no longer have laws/rules/policies/etc. that explicitly discriminate afaik, but the long term effects of slaverly have not been addressed properly. The free'd slaves started with nothing, and the starting hand is everything unless you're lucky, which clearly most blacks aren't. Even so, I'd prefer the issue were about poor people in general even if other races don't have the same history.

However, the riots n looters, the shaming of all police, racisim towards whites, lol Chaz, I don't support any of that. Really don't see how destroying black owned businesses and killing black people shows that black lives matter. If you must be stupid n violent, at the very least direct it towards those who have wronged you. Toppling statues doesn't do anything either, all this will only turn sensible people that could be persuaded away.

Look, there is no racism against white people.  Actually the term racism is used incorrectly most of the time and seems to be the catch all term for prejudice, discrimination, stereotyping and so forth.  The thing is a lot of white people have this belief that racism, discrimination, prejudice and stereotyping only existed back during the 1800 or something but they seem to forget that white people have been doing this for the entire history of the US.  Those sins continue to happen and isn't some fairytail minorities tell their kids at night.  White people believe that what is happening today is sudden and some divide caused by BLM or some other BS.  This divide has been here for decades but they have ignored it because they have ignored the plight of minorities in America and when it suddenly bloom into outrage they are shocked.

You probably never had one of your kids ask you who is that person on that statue in a public park or building and you have to tell them, well that's a confederate hero who advocated slavery and racism against black people and who the people of this state thought was appropriate to honor him with a statue.  Yes, this is a man who went to war to die to keep us slaves but somehow that seems irrelevant.  Those same sensible people you talk about have no clue that the majority of those statues where not put up in the 1800 but instead in the 20th century.  They were put up to show a time and place where black people were slaves and to celebrate those very same people who fought to keep those people in slavery as a testament to their sacrifice for racism.  Those same sensible people are why we are here today.  They allowed those statue to be put up during times of racism, prejudice, discrimination and hate and they marginalize them today because because they do not see them as the sins of the past they are and affront to the people that have to look at them every day knowing that the country they live and die in still honor these people as heroes.

As far as looting and rioting, well there are a lot of different parties involved and they are not all black.  Actually I would say that in times like these you get opportunist who love when things go boom so they can make it worst and then find a nice target to blame which is BLM. 

Last but not least, you have already been mesmerized by the media, who love it when violence occurrs because that anger is over 



Runa216 said:
sundin13 said:

My respect for Kyle Kulinski and Krystal Ball and Ben Shapiro isn't much higher than my respect for Candace Owens, but at least I don't find their frequent idiocy to be quite as dangerous as Candace Owens'.

And by the way, there are a ton of idiots who have a large audience. That doesn't prove anything. All it proves is that people buy what they are selling, which is more often some flavor of Kool-Aid than strong arguments. 

PS: I wouldn't wish an hour long clip of Candace Owens on my worst enemy...

Honestly, I have no idea who Candace Owens is...but if she's even worse than Ben SHapiro - that absolutely disgusting filth rag of contemptuous debate tactics and disgusting smugness - then I don't want to know. 

Just think of Candace as a black Ben Shapiro in a skirt.  She basically says all the things you would expect from Ben but is black and a woman so you can believe the conservative white people love her as a smart and intelligent black person.  I basically never heard of her myself until a few of my conservative friends shared some of her stuff.  Once I got a chance to view all of her points, it was clear to me she is pretty much an opportunist.  She has gain success being a pro Trump black woman where she probably would have been more mute as a liberal which she was before turning full circle.  I would have no problems with her political point of view until I saw some of the bat shit crazy stuff she is spewing now that shows where she is coming from.  



Machiavellian said:

Look, there is no racism against white people.  Actually the term racism is used incorrectly most of the time and seems to be the catch all term for prejudice, discrimination, stereotyping and so forth.  The thing is a lot of white people have this belief that racism, discrimination, prejudice and stereotyping only existed back during the 1800 or something but they seem to forget that white people have been doing this for the entire history of the US.  Those sins continue to happen and isn't some fairytail minorities tell their kids at night.  White people believe that what is happening today is sudden and some divide caused by BLM or some other BS.  This divide has been here for decades but they have ignored it because they have ignored the plight of minorities in America and when it suddenly bloom into outrage they are shocked.

You probably never had one of your kids ask you who is that person on that statue in a public park or building and you have to tell them, well that's a confederate hero who advocated slavery and racism against black people and who the people of this state thought was appropriate to honor him with a statue.  Yes, this is a man who went to war to die to keep us slaves but somehow that seems irrelevant.  Those same sensible people you talk about have no clue that the majority of those statues where not put up in the 1800 but instead in the 20th century.  They were put up to show a time and place where black people were slaves and to celebrate those very same people who fought to keep those people in slavery as a testament to their sacrifice for racism.  Those same sensible people are why we are here today.  They allowed those statue to be put up during times of racism, prejudice, discrimination and hate and they marginalize them today because because they do not see them as the sins of the past they are and affront to the people that have to look at them every day knowing that the country they live and die in still honor these people as heroes.

As far as looting and rioting, well there are a lot of different parties involved and they are not all black.  Actually I would say that in times like these you get opportunist who love when things go boom so they can make it worst and then find a nice target to blame which is BLM. 

Last but not least, you have already been mesmerized by the media, who love it when violence occurrs because that anger is over 

So what do you call it when people are being hated on for the color of their skin? Sounds like the literal definition of racism to me.

I'm just not that much of a snowflake, I don't care about motionless statues that have no tangible effect on my livelihood. If my kid asked I'd simply explain, they're gonna learn history anyway, not a big deal.

Ha that's a convenient excuse, anytime a movement commits crimes it's "just the opportunist!" Like I was saying, given what started all this probably had nothing to do with race, I question whether or not this whole thing is opportunistic. Not really sure what point your last sentence is making, crimes aren't fake and made up by the media.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
Machiavellian said:

Look, there is no racism against white people.  Actually the term racism is used incorrectly most of the time and seems to be the catch all term for prejudice, discrimination, stereotyping and so forth.  The thing is a lot of white people have this belief that racism, discrimination, prejudice and stereotyping only existed back during the 1800 or something but they seem to forget that white people have been doing this for the entire history of the US.  Those sins continue to happen and isn't some fairytail minorities tell their kids at night.  White people believe that what is happening today is sudden and some divide caused by BLM or some other BS.  This divide has been here for decades but they have ignored it because they have ignored the plight of minorities in America and when it suddenly bloom into outrage they are shocked.

You probably never had one of your kids ask you who is that person on that statue in a public park or building and you have to tell them, well that's a confederate hero who advocated slavery and racism against black people and who the people of this state thought was appropriate to honor him with a statue.  Yes, this is a man who went to war to die to keep us slaves but somehow that seems irrelevant.  Those same sensible people you talk about have no clue that the majority of those statues where not put up in the 1800 but instead in the 20th century.  They were put up to show a time and place where black people were slaves and to celebrate those very same people who fought to keep those people in slavery as a testament to their sacrifice for racism.  Those same sensible people are why we are here today.  They allowed those statue to be put up during times of racism, prejudice, discrimination and hate and they marginalize them today because because they do not see them as the sins of the past they are and affront to the people that have to look at them every day knowing that the country they live and die in still honor these people as heroes.

As far as looting and rioting, well there are a lot of different parties involved and they are not all black.  Actually I would say that in times like these you get opportunist who love when things go boom so they can make it worst and then find a nice target to blame which is BLM. 

Last but not least, you have already been mesmerized by the media, who love it when violence occurrs because that anger is over 

So what do you call it when people are being hated on for the color of their skin? Sounds like the literal definition of racism to me.

I'm just not that much of a snowflake, I don't care about motionless statues that have no tangible effect on my livelihood. If my kid asked I'd simply explain, they're gonna learn history anyway, not a big deal.

Ha that's a convenient excuse, anytime a movement commits crimes it's "just the opportunist!" Like I was saying, given what started all this probably had nothing to do with race, I question whether or not this whole thing is opportunistic. Not really sure what point your last sentence is making, crimes aren't fake and made up by the media.

Why is it so easy for people like you to ignore history, disregard context, and lack nuance when discussing these issues? Oh, right. Because it's convenient. and becuase, since you're presumably white or privileged in some way, you don't have to experience the reality of racism in a way even remotely comparable to what you bemoan. 

In a vacuum, yes. all racism is bad (it is.) All racism is equal (it's not). You're pulling from the same BS playbook of 'white lives matter' or 'straight pride' for your piss-poor arguments. This idea that everything exists in a vacuum with no historical context to guide why one is okay while another is not. Why? becuase it's convenient. Not because it's right, but because it's easier for you to argue your points without having to deal with any of the more complicated elements of the issue at hand. It's easy to say the things you do, because wrong but easy answers are more appealing than complicated but correct answers. 



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So what do you call it when people are being hated on for the color of their skin? Sounds like the literal definition of racism to me.

I'm just not that much of a snowflake, I don't care about motionless statues that have no tangible effect on my livelihood. If my kid asked I'd simply explain, they're gonna learn history anyway, not a big deal.

Ha that's a convenient excuse, anytime a movement commits crimes it's "just the opportunist!" Like I was saying, given what started all this probably had nothing to do with race, I question whether or not this whole thing is opportunistic. Not really sure what point your last sentence is making, crimes aren't fake and made up by the media.

Actually racism is when one race or set of people look down or believe another ethnic group is inferior to the other.  

You do not care about something but you demean the people that do with the term snowflake.  You do not have to care or even agree but your choice of words show a lack of understanding or even the basic sensitivity since it doesn't really concern you.  Its not that your kids asked the question about the statue since you missed the point, its the fact that they have to ask a question why someone is celebrated as a hero, who promoted the discrimination, prejudice, racism of black people in America being prominently displayed in public places like a park or public building instead of a museum where the person can learn the history.  Why as a black person in America you have to look upon that statue and know the person who put it there is celebrating your forefathers slavery.  That would be like putting up statues of Hitler in Jewish communities and saying, don't be a snowflake its all history.  While it means nothing for you, you still have to ignore it.  You have to say to yourself this means nothing but actually it does.  It means at one point in history and most of those statues were put in place during the 20th century, someone thought it was ok, to mass produce confederate solider as heroes and dot the south with their statues to celebrate their stance on slavery, discrimination, segregation and prejudice.  While you can say to yourself no big deal, it still sends a message and to allow that message to be a statement within the south, in public places where people of all colors go to, should not be tolerated.  Could it be that this is one of the reason you may be feeling the hate.  When you hold on to your sins but attempt to leave out the bad parts and then promote it as history.  There is a large group of people not very happy your ideal of history and the celebration of it was due to your acceptance of slavery and the celebration of it.

You call it an excuse because you will always easily follow what the media portrays.  Its how this whole concept of black people being violent murdering race has propagated in American society.  If you really care about people not getting pissed off that they riot out in the streets, being more proactive in caring about their issues they have stated for decades would be a way to prevent such incidents.  Not sure where you get your news but I get it from a bunch of different sources, and what I see is a lot of white people mixed in these violent bit of damage and not all of them are protesters.