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Alara317 on 24 July 2020
Jumpin said:
KLAMarine said:

All Lives Matter.

Yep, that's the phrase, and the people who chant it at counter-protests are too damn stupid to see their own absurdity.

Counter protesting with "ALL LIVES MATTER" is as stupid as counter protesting "Free Tibet" with "FREE ALL PEOPLE" or countering "Save the Rain Forest" with "SAVE ALL TREES!"  it's because instead of hearing "Black lives matter" they hear "White lives don't matter" -- what is clear is these are NOT bright people =P

"I have breast cancer" ALL CANCERS MATTER

"My house is on fire" ALL HOUSES MATTER

"My son is disables" ALL KIDS MATTER

"I broke my arm" ALL BONES MATTER

all of those statements are true, but they're not what needs attention right now.



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Zoombael on 24 July 2020

EnricoPallazzo said:

As a colored person myself (I hate this word) I think the same. Actually I am against the movement the way it is today, too much focused on marxist revolution and violence, which are things that unfortunately walk side by side usually. But I do really hope they can bring some improvement to the black community in US in the end. And yes... I'm more worried about things that happen in the underworld at the moment. Like, I'm really scared.

Yea, it's annoying whenever i have to refer to myself as POC, B&W or whatever.

The first time i didn't think much of BLM. That it was a slogan, a banner people loosely flock to. This perception has changed and with all the information i gathered, my viewpoint of the situation in the US has become taken over by an eerie sensation. To be honest, i don't have any hope that change will come. Not that i had any kind expectations and an elaborate opinion on that matter. Now i feel hammer struck, not sure what to make of it.

What did you associate with (under)world?



Hunting Season is done...

KLAMarine on 25 July 2020
SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:

I have plenty interest in getting to the reform part but BLM is still named BLM, not BLaM. As a result, more people in general waste time discussing the semantics rather than focusing on the reform part.

"And do you honestly think that it would have made a damn bit of difference if the movement was called 'black lives matter also'?"

A good question but I'm afraid we have no concrete answer. It's not like we can run a simulation of real life, rewind the clock, and rename the movement BLaM to observe changes. We can certainly speculate and I think a renaming would help cut down on discussion of the name.

We just had a simulation because you're still hung up on it even when you do know the intent behind the name.

It wouldn't change a damn thing.  You know, I know it.  Like I said, they'd just counter-protest with "white lives also matter".

Because this semantics messaging thing is a red herring.  It's a scapegoat.  A cop out.  It's an excuse to gripe about exclusion so they don't have to face the reality of the situation and actually discuss reforms and change.  You know it, I know it. 


This is the scenario you are expecting us to believe:

BLM: Our movement is called Black Lives Matter and it's purpose is to address police brutality and social injustice.
Response: All Lives Matter. 

BLaM: Our movement is called Black Lives also Matter and it's purpose is to address police brutality and social injustice. 
Response: Oh, wow.  Let's discuss these important issues of police brutality and social injustice.

"You know it, I know it."

>Simply asserting something is so doesn't make it so.

"Because this semantics messaging thing is a red herring.  It's a scapegoat.  A cop out.  It's an excuse to gripe about exclusion so they don't have to face the reality of the situation and actually discuss reforms and change."

>And it's probably going to continue to be used as a red herring/scapegoat/cop out/excuse so long as the name stays as is.

Or we could rename to BLaM and see if that helps mitigate the semantics issue. We won't truly know until we try.

Hopefully it'll help Runa out who's sick of having to repeat himself.

Runa216:

KLAMarine said:
Runa216 said:

yep! Yes they do. Which is why BLM needs to be heard and continued...because right now it seems like law enforcement and American politics are acting like Black Lives don't matter. If all lives matter, then Black Lives also matter, but since they seem to not matter in the eyes of too many, they need to be given the appropriate attention and respect. 

It's simple. Why don't you get it? BLM doesn't mean ONLY black lives matter, or that they matter more, or that white lives don't matter, it's that Black Lives DO matter, and modern political climates seem to indicate the opposite. 

Do you get sick of having to make this point?

oh yeah, I do. I hate the fact that I have to keep saying this to people who don't get it. 

TK-Karma said:
KLAMarine said:

No, that IS what I was trying to say.

Believe me: I happen to be the ultimate authority on what I was trying to say after all. No one knows me better than me.

I have plenty interest in getting to the reform part but BLM is still named BLM, not BLaM. As a result, more people in general waste time discussing the semantics rather than focusing on the reform part.

"And do you honestly think that it would have made a damn bit of difference if the movement was called 'black lives matter also'?"

A good question but I'm afraid we have no concrete answer. It's not like we can run a simulation of real life, rewind the clock, and rename the movement BLaM to observe changes. We can certainly speculate and I think a renaming would help cut down on discussion of the name.

When it comes to the concept of simulations, they are never seen as "the truth". They are simply tools, built on many assumptions themselves, which inform decision-makers on what may happen in a given scenario. No simulation is a perfect reflection of reality (maybe quantum simulations, but let's not open that can of worms). Why not classify imagination as a simulation/tool, in which you can play around with and assess ideas? Realistically, it is the only (i.e. best) tool we have to explore these types of decision spaces, otherwise we have nothing at all and we can't move beyond square one.

Further to SpokenTruth's point, I feel like this idea has been raised in discussions before ...

For simplicity I'll just copy/paste the contents from that previous post, here:

Your demonstrated strategy for political discourse on this forum lacks imagination in your pursuit to learn, in that you choose to not exercise your imagination. You seem too scared to think/talk about situations that's not got some perfectly framed and uncut video-footage associated with it, which limits your ability to be aware of what can/cannot be likely. Unfortunately we dont have that luxury in the real-world and without using your imagination, it's gonna be hard to properly exercise empathy and connect with those on the other side to work on a solution that gets collective buy-in ... some might also call this a functioning democracy ;)

"Why not classify imagination as a simulation/tool, in which you can play around with and assess ideas?"

>One certainly can use imagination to simulate but how does one confirm outcomes?

Jumpin said:
KLAMarine said:

All Lives Matter.

Yep, that's the phrase, and the people who chant it at counter-protests are too damn stupid to see their own absurdity.

Counter protesting with "ALL LIVES MATTER" is as stupid as counter protesting "Free Tibet" with "FREE ALL PEOPLE" or countering "Save the Rain Forest" with "SAVE ALL TREES!"  it's because instead of hearing "Black lives matter" they hear "White lives don't matter" -- what is clear is these are NOT bright people =P

I think it might be because BLM makes little to no mention of white victims of police brutality. They're as much victims as anyone.

Alara317 said:
Jumpin said:

Yep, that's the phrase, and the people who chant it at counter-protests are too damn stupid to see their own absurdity.

Counter protesting with "ALL LIVES MATTER" is as stupid as counter protesting "Free Tibet" with "FREE ALL PEOPLE" or countering "Save the Rain Forest" with "SAVE ALL TREES!"  it's because instead of hearing "Black lives matter" they hear "White lives don't matter" -- what is clear is these are NOT bright people =P

"I have breast cancer" ALL CANCERS MATTER

"My house is on fire" ALL HOUSES MATTER

"My son is disables" ALL KIDS MATTER

"I broke my arm" ALL BONES MATTER

all of those statements are true, but they're not what needs attention right now.

Blacks aren't the only ones being killed by police.

All Lives Matter covers all lives, not just black lives.



vivster on 25 July 2020

I love that the idea that a person having the right to not get murdered or killed by neglect is somehow political extremism. Apparently the freedom to live is not within the spectrum of what the US calls "freedom" and has to be politically enforced first.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Alara317 on 25 July 2020
KLAMarine said:
SpokenTruth said:

We just had a simulation because you're still hung up on it even when you do know the intent behind the name.

It wouldn't change a damn thing.  You know, I know it.  Like I said, they'd just counter-protest with "white lives also matter".

Because this semantics messaging thing is a red herring.  It's a scapegoat.  A cop out.  It's an excuse to gripe about exclusion so they don't have to face the reality of the situation and actually discuss reforms and change.  You know it, I know it. 


This is the scenario you are expecting us to believe:

BLM: Our movement is called Black Lives Matter and it's purpose is to address police brutality and social injustice.
Response: All Lives Matter. 

BLaM: Our movement is called Black Lives also Matter and it's purpose is to address police brutality and social injustice. 
Response: Oh, wow.  Let's discuss these important issues of police brutality and social injustice.

"You know it, I know it."

>Simply asserting something is so doesn't make it so.

"Because this semantics messaging thing is a red herring.  It's a scapegoat.  A cop out.  It's an excuse to gripe about exclusion so they don't have to face the reality of the situation and actually discuss reforms and change."

>And it's probably going to continue to be used as a red herring/scapegoat/cop out/excuse so long as the name stays as is.

Or we could rename to BLaM and see if that helps mitigate the semantics issue. We won't truly know until we try.

Hopefully it'll help Runa out who's sick of having to repeat himself.

Runa216:

KLAMarine said:

Do you get sick of having to make this point?

oh yeah, I do. I hate the fact that I have to keep saying this to people who don't get it. 

TK-Karma said:

When it comes to the concept of simulations, they are never seen as "the truth". They are simply tools, built on many assumptions themselves, which inform decision-makers on what may happen in a given scenario. No simulation is a perfect reflection of reality (maybe quantum simulations, but let's not open that can of worms). Why not classify imagination as a simulation/tool, in which you can play around with and assess ideas? Realistically, it is the only (i.e. best) tool we have to explore these types of decision spaces, otherwise we have nothing at all and we can't move beyond square one.

Further to SpokenTruth's point, I feel like this idea has been raised in discussions before ...

For simplicity I'll just copy/paste the contents from that previous post, here:

Your demonstrated strategy for political discourse on this forum lacks imagination in your pursuit to learn, in that you choose to not exercise your imagination. You seem too scared to think/talk about situations that's not got some perfectly framed and uncut video-footage associated with it, which limits your ability to be aware of what can/cannot be likely. Unfortunately we dont have that luxury in the real-world and without using your imagination, it's gonna be hard to properly exercise empathy and connect with those on the other side to work on a solution that gets collective buy-in ... some might also call this a functioning democracy ;)

"Why not classify imagination as a simulation/tool, in which you can play around with and assess ideas?"

>One certainly can use imagination to simulate but how does one confirm outcomes?

Jumpin said:

Yep, that's the phrase, and the people who chant it at counter-protests are too damn stupid to see their own absurdity.

Counter protesting with "ALL LIVES MATTER" is as stupid as counter protesting "Free Tibet" with "FREE ALL PEOPLE" or countering "Save the Rain Forest" with "SAVE ALL TREES!"  it's because instead of hearing "Black lives matter" they hear "White lives don't matter" -- what is clear is these are NOT bright people =P

I think it might be because BLM makes little to no mention of white victims of police brutality. They're as much victims as anyone.

Alara317 said:

"I have breast cancer" ALL CANCERS MATTER

"My house is on fire" ALL HOUSES MATTER

"My son is disables" ALL KIDS MATTER

"I broke my arm" ALL BONES MATTER

all of those statements are true, but they're not what needs attention right now.

Blacks aren't the only ones being killed by police.

All Lives Matter covers all lives, not just black lives.

Jesus christ how culturally ignorant are you? Yes, we know it isn't JUST black people being killed, but the reality is that they are being targetted with increased rates and there are far more examples of black (men in particular) people being killed by cops despite them being a minority in the US. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. IT's not saying ONLY black lives matter or ONLY black lives are being affected, but that we live in a world where it seems culturally accepted to treat black people with less respect. Why are you being so aggressively ignorant on this issue? Why are you being so stubborn in your right to be disingenuous? what do you gain by trying to devalue the very real strife affecting millions of people in your country? 

THIS is why BLM as a movement exists. People like you are the reason it needs to be made clear now more than ever that systemic racism is a very real and very pervasive thing. You are a glowing example of how racism persists in this world. You might not be burning crosses or wearing a ghost robe, but you're enabling it by pretending racism doesn't exist or otherwise refusing to accept its pervasive influence. 



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Alara317 on 25 July 2020
vivster said:

I love that the idea that a person having the right to not get murdered or killed by neglect is somehow political extremism. Apparently the freedom to live is not within the spectrum of what the US calls "freedom" and has to be politically enforced first.

The conservative agenda: I have the right to be shitty, you don't have the right to complain about it.



KLAMarine on 25 July 2020
vivster said:

I love that the idea that a person having the right to not get murdered or killed by neglect is somehow political extremism. Apparently the freedom to live is not within the spectrum of what the US calls "freedom" and has to be politically enforced first.

Who's calling it political extremism?

Alara317 said:
KLAMarine said:

"You know it, I know it."

>Simply asserting something is so doesn't make it so.

"Because this semantics messaging thing is a red herring.  It's a scapegoat.  A cop out.  It's an excuse to gripe about exclusion so they don't have to face the reality of the situation and actually discuss reforms and change."

>And it's probably going to continue to be used as a red herring/scapegoat/cop out/excuse so long as the name stays as is.

Or we could rename to BLaM and see if that helps mitigate the semantics issue. We won't truly know until we try.

Hopefully it'll help Runa out who's sick of having to repeat himself.

Runa216:

oh yeah, I do. I hate the fact that I have to keep saying this to people who don't get it. 

"Why not classify imagination as a simulation/tool, in which you can play around with and assess ideas?"

>One certainly can use imagination to simulate but how does one confirm outcomes?

I think it might be because BLM makes little to no mention of white victims of police brutality. They're as much victims as anyone.

Blacks aren't the only ones being killed by police.

All Lives Matter covers all lives, not just black lives.

Jesus christ how culturally ignorant are you? Yes, we know it isn't JUST black people being killed, but the reality is that they are being targetted with increased rates and there are far more examples of black (men in particular) people being killed by cops despite them being a minority in the US. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. IT's not saying ONLY black lives matter or ONLY black lives are being affected, but that we live in a world where it seems culturally accepted to treat black people with less respect. Why are you being so aggressively ignorant on this issue? Why are you being so stubborn in your right to be disingenuous? what do you gain by trying to devalue the very real strife affecting millions of people in your country? 

THIS is why BLM as a movement exists. People like you are the reason it needs to be made clear now more than ever that systemic racism is a very real and very pervasive thing. You are a glowing example of how racism persists in this world. You might not be burning crosses or wearing a ghost robe, but you're enabling it by pretending racism doesn't exist or otherwise refusing to accept its pervasive influence. 

"but the reality is that they are being targetted with increased rates and there are far more examples of black (men in particular) people being killed by cops despite them being a minority in the US"

>Or because of the greater reporting on bad interactions between police and black men, too many black men are more paranoid as a result when it comes to police thus interactions between black men and police are sabotaged from the outset. I'm sure most get nervous when interacting with police; for a black man, regularly confronted with tales of brutality, are reasonably more fearful on average than their lighter counterparts...

And police are human too. They get nervous too and they're trained to always be ready and when confronted with a nervous black man, more nervous than they're used to with other people, they might be put more on edge fearing the person they've detained or pulled over might be armed or perhaps could be concealing something incriminating in their car. I can't blame them though, things can go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. Officer Riley Jarecki can tell you about that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3FGcN2Rlig

"People like you are the reason it needs to be made clear now more than ever that systemic racism is a very real and very pervasive thing"

>I can't say I'm convinced. Please help convince me.



sundin13 on 25 July 2020
Zoombael said:

I'm apolitical, because politics... it is complex. Not in the sense that politics itself is complex. Anyway.

When i look at the BLM logo i don't see an organisation brought into existence primarily to fight racism, support black communities and all that. What i see is a political movement in the extreme left of the political spectrum. I very much dislike extrem-ism, no matter politics, religion, right, left, christian, muslim, scientology. I dislike the subversive and tolliterian nature.

The raised fist is a commonly used symbol amongst freedom, human rights movements aso, true. Keep digging. 

From the BLM website:

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

"Marxist theory on family established the revolutionary ideal for the Soviet state and influenced state policy concerning family in varying degrees throughout the history of the country. The principals are: The nuclear family unit is an economic arrangement structured to maintain the ideological functions of Capitalism. The family unit perpetuates class inequality through the transfer of private property through inheritance. Following the abolition of private property, the bourgeois family will cease to exist and the union of individuals will become a “purely private affair”. The Soviet state’s first code on marriage and family was written in 1918 and enacted a series of trans-formative laws designed to bring the Soviet family closer in line with Marxist theory."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_in_the_Soviet_Union#Bolshevik_vision_of_the_family

I'm in a bit of pickle here. As a colored person i'm supposed to be automatically supportive of this extreme-left ideology? That's kinda racist? That's not all. There is more to this.

I really don't want to participate in politcal debates, especially not the one going on right now. I can't help it, when i observe what's going on in the (under)world the politics squabble becomes distant chatter in the background.

I think we need to draw a distinction between the Black Lives Matter movement and the Black Lives Matter organization. The movement is fundamentally decentralized with no real power structure and as such, the beliefs encompassed within it are anything which falls under the logic of the phrase "black lives matter". It is focused around police violence, however it can be used to extend to the value of black lives in other contexts as well. As such, there is no required checklist of beliefs that one must hold in order to agree with the movement. You don't need to be a Marxist or an atheist or whatever else you read from some specific sections of the movement. You simply need to be willing to stand for the value of black lives and against those who seek to diminish this value.

The organization is a very small part of the overall movement. It primarily seeks to aid in some of the logistical struggles of a decentralized movement, but its actual power over the intent of the movement is highly limited. Disagreement with one paragraph on their website does little to actually speak to your opinion on the movement, and whether or not the organization is "extreme-left" shouldn't matter in regards to the ideology of the movement.

I feel that some people dig into things like this when they are specifically looking for a reason to be against something (like, for example comparing the wiki page on the Soviet Union, or complaining about a logo). They find one little insignificant thing that they don't like and use that thing to define something much larger, however simply listening to the voices of the people involved in the protest should show you that they are diverse both in demographics and ideology. All you need in order to support the movement is a commitment to the value of black lives and in my opinion, that is just about the least extreme ideology imaginable.



Runa216 on 25 July 2020
KLAMarine said:
vivster said:

I love that the idea that a person having the right to not get murdered or killed by neglect is somehow political extremism. Apparently the freedom to live is not within the spectrum of what the US calls "freedom" and has to be politically enforced first.

Who's calling it political extremism?

Alara317 said:

Jesus christ how culturally ignorant are you? Yes, we know it isn't JUST black people being killed, but the reality is that they are being targetted with increased rates and there are far more examples of black (men in particular) people being killed by cops despite them being a minority in the US. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. IT's not saying ONLY black lives matter or ONLY black lives are being affected, but that we live in a world where it seems culturally accepted to treat black people with less respect. Why are you being so aggressively ignorant on this issue? Why are you being so stubborn in your right to be disingenuous? what do you gain by trying to devalue the very real strife affecting millions of people in your country? 

THIS is why BLM as a movement exists. People like you are the reason it needs to be made clear now more than ever that systemic racism is a very real and very pervasive thing. You are a glowing example of how racism persists in this world. You might not be burning crosses or wearing a ghost robe, but you're enabling it by pretending racism doesn't exist or otherwise refusing to accept its pervasive influence. 

"but the reality is that they are being targetted with increased rates and there are far more examples of black (men in particular) people being killed by cops despite them being a minority in the US"

>Or because of the greater reporting on bad interactions between police and black men, too many black men are more paranoid as a result when it comes to police thus interactions between black men and police are sabotaged from the outset. I'm sure most get nervous when interacting with police; for a black man, regularly confronted with tales of brutality, are reasonably more fearful on average than their lighter counterparts...

And police are human too. They get nervous too and they're trained to always be ready and when confronted with a nervous black man, more nervous than they're used to with other people, they might be put more on edge fearing the person they've detained or pulled over might be armed or perhaps could be concealing something incriminating in their car. I can't blame them though, things can go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. Officer Riley Jarecki can tell you about that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3FGcN2Rlig

"People like you are the reason it needs to be made clear now more than ever that systemic racism is a very real and very pervasive thing"

>I can't say I'm convinced. Please help convince me.

Seriously? Plenty of people have put in plenty of work to explain things and educate you on the matter. You've made it VERY clear you have no interest in learning, you just wanna be petulant about it and frustrate people into giving up so that you can, in some twisted logic, 'prove' to yourself and others that it's not real. 



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Immersiveunreality on 25 July 2020
KLAMarine said:
vivster said:

I love that the idea that a person having the right to not get murdered or killed by neglect is somehow political extremism. Apparently the freedom to live is not within the spectrum of what the US calls "freedom" and has to be politically enforced first.

Who's calling it political extremism?

Alara317 said:

Jesus christ how culturally ignorant are you? Yes, we know it isn't JUST black people being killed, but the reality is that they are being targetted with increased rates and there are far more examples of black (men in particular) people being killed by cops despite them being a minority in the US. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. IT's not saying ONLY black lives matter or ONLY black lives are being affected, but that we live in a world where it seems culturally accepted to treat black people with less respect. Why are you being so aggressively ignorant on this issue? Why are you being so stubborn in your right to be disingenuous? what do you gain by trying to devalue the very real strife affecting millions of people in your country? 

THIS is why BLM as a movement exists. People like you are the reason it needs to be made clear now more than ever that systemic racism is a very real and very pervasive thing. You are a glowing example of how racism persists in this world. You might not be burning crosses or wearing a ghost robe, but you're enabling it by pretending racism doesn't exist or otherwise refusing to accept its pervasive influence. 

"but the reality is that they are being targetted with increased rates and there are far more examples of black (men in particular) people being killed by cops despite them being a minority in the US"

>Or because of the greater reporting on bad interactions between police and black men, too many black men are more paranoid as a result when it comes to police thus interactions between black men and police are sabotaged from the outset. I'm sure most get nervous when interacting with police; for a black man, regularly confronted with tales of brutality, are reasonably more fearful on average than their lighter counterparts...

And police are human too. They get nervous too and they're trained to always be ready and when confronted with a nervous black man, more nervous than they're used to with other people, they might be put more on edge fearing the person they've detained or pulled over might be armed or perhaps could be concealing something incriminating in their car. I can't blame them though, things can go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. Officer Riley Jarecki can tell you about that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3FGcN2Rlig

"People like you are the reason it needs to be made clear now more than ever that systemic racism is a very real and very pervasive thing"

>I can't say I'm convinced. Please help convince me.

The cop in that vid did panic for sure,that's not the best behaviour.

Take cover and shoot tires and when the driver gets out she could have shot his legs or she could call for backup when he drove away after shooting the tires.

I wonder about the entry exam for police training and how they train them to behave under stress.