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tsogud said:

A good thread.

It is like a thread full of white supremacists but tweeting about rioting instead of racism and about being police officer instead of being black.

Such awfull people.



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PLEASE DONATE AND SIGN IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT TO A PROTEST NEAR YOU! ANY LITTLE BIT HELPS!!



 

sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

Okay let's talk about it: which of your proposals do you think would have prevented George Floyd's death?

You have already asked me that question and I've already told you why it is a bad question and then answered it anyway.

I don't recall this ever happening. What post was this?



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

You have already asked me that question and I've already told you why it is a bad question and then answered it anyway.

I don't recall this ever happening. What post was this?

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9157679

You: >Which of these proposals do you think would have prevented Floyd's death?

Me: As for the last point, something I often like to say in regards to mass shootings is that we shouldn't look to implement reactive policies to prevent one specific instance. We should be proactive instead of reacting. We should look to do the most good, instead of trying to prevent something that has already happened. That said, I think numerous things that were listed on that site could have made a difference, most notably changing how officers respond to minor offenses and improving training. The thing is, a lot of this comes down to changing mindsets. It isn't about saying or doing one specific thing, it is about fundamentally changing the relationship between police and the community, and that is something which cannot be done just by making one or two small changes. It requires foundational change.

To which you responded by ignoring 99% of what I said, picking out one sentence and then responding to that even though the context surrounding that sentence made your question not really make any sense.



sundin13 said:

This seems to have gotten rather circular, so I'll just add a couple points of clarification to wrap this up:

-I am not putting words in your mouth. I am speaking about what I believe to be the effect of your actions. I made this abundantly clear in the paragraph right after you said I put words in your mouth. You can say that you support the protests one million times and that would not change my opinion on this matter, because I believe, in practice, heavy criticism of the violence within some of these protests (see below for point of clarification) benefits those who would like to see this brushed under the rug without any change. And while some of your actions or arguments may help, that does not erase the issues I have with this particular point.

I said I support protests as it's a democratic right in democratic nations. - I don't support the violence, which protesting cannot be used as an excuse for.

There is never an excuse for violence and the additional destruction of life, property and the environment. -I literally have a requirement to protect those.

sundin13 said:

-To clarify, when I am criticizing individuals such as yourself who are speaking out against the violence which has been seen at some of these protests, I mean that exclusively as a criticism of those who are on the outside looking in. Those in the community and those impacted directly by police brutality and systemic injustice have every right to shape these protests. That is what I have been saying all along. It is not my responsibility to judge. Similarly, I don't believe it is yours. If we believe in reform and support the correcting of those systemic injustices, I believe our sole responsibility is to allow those affected to speak and express themselves, and protect them as they do from further injustice. Then, if damage is done, we should help rebuild.

I am criticizing everyone. Police, Military, Civilians, Government and so forth. - And you can bet I will judge all sides, I haven't signed any agreements saying I can't or shant judge anyone or anything.
There are many "opportunists" that are taking advantage of the situation for personal/political gain, they too need to be criticized, did that individual really need to raid that cheescake factory and steal a cheesecake? How does that further the Black Lives Matter cause? I honestly don't think it does, if anything it negatively effects the cause and paints it in a darker light, that individual itself was likely only caring about what they can personally gain out of it.

That factory will likely be shut down for a period for repairs and cleaning, which means workers may be out of work for a time period, which places financial strain on families, especially during a crucial time where the USA is likely to enter a recession. - That's not good, people will already be doing it financially tough and this just shows how much larger the issue can be, it's bigger than just the riot itself.
People need to look past the actual violence and look at the impact it will have during the short and long terms to the entire region, it's affecting more than just the victims and other participants of this issue directly, it's flowing onto innocent people who may have historically supported such causes for equality, you don't want to alienate them.

The individuals who are impacted by police brutality and systemic injustice have every right to be pissed off, I was wearing their shoes once being a part of the LGBTQI community during a relatively homophobic part of Australian history, so discrimination is not something I will take lightly, but I believe the world rallying together to protest peacefully is the right way to go about this... And the world is certainly rallying behind this cause.
But in no way did we resort to violence to achieve equality here, we achieved that through peaceful means, legislation and various democratic processes, that to me proves that violence, death and destruction is unnecessary to forward ones agenda.

And I agree, those affected do need to be allowed to speak and express themselves and be protected from further injustice, I would like to see the corresponding unnecessary collateral damage, destruction, vilification, bigotry kept to an absolute minimum, because whilst we can rebuild a factory... We cannot bring those lives back that were killed during this protest.

This protest has become more than just the life of George Floyde lost now, the death toll has risen... And if calls aren't put forth for people to calm their shit, we will have more people killed.

How many more people need to be killed? That's a question I put forth to you.

5? 50? 500? Isn't the hundreds of thousands recently killed by COVID not enough?

The other aspect that needs an independent inquiry into is your incarceration system, there is a disproportionate rate of certain demographics incarcerated, which has meant the USA has led the world in incarceration rates, there is a systemic issue from top to bottom. - Now as far as I am aware allot of the prisons are privatized so there is monetary gain for certain law enforcement agencies? Correct me if I am wrong. - But that doesn't sit well with me.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Pemalite said


How many more people need to be killed? That's a question I put forth to you.

The way I see it, you are the one who should be asked this question, not me. How many more must die under the injustice of this system, while the peaceful cries of the affected communities are ignored before we get to the point of "by any means"?

Again, I would like to emphasize that I am not pro-violence. I simply choose to blame the system under which violence is inevitable instead of those struggling against it, even if their rage isn't always pointed at the most constructive targets. Anger isn't always channeled logically, even if that anger itself is logical.

I would also like to emphasize quickly, that quashing the violence itself is not the only way to bring about peace. The violence is a symptom of a much greater disease.Treating the protesters with humanity and respecting their rights will abate the violence, but more than anything adequate changes and reforms to the system will turn these protests into a celebration. The government holds tremendous power to quell this violence through peace and justice. I will not demand that the black community turns to peace until they are given justice. Until then, I would rather listen to their voices than interrupt them with my own.

Last edited by sundin13 - on 03 June 2020

sundin13 said:

The way I see it, you are the one who should be asked this question, not me. How many more must die under the injustice of this system, while the peaceful cries of the affected communities are ignored before we get to the point of "by any means"?

One life lost is one life to many.

I guess you expect that answer from someone like me though.

sundin13 said:

Again, I would like to emphasize that I am not pro-violence. I simply choose to blame the system under which violence is inevitable instead of those struggling against it, even if their rage isn't always pointed at the most constructive targets. Anger isn't always channeled logically, even if that anger itself is logical.

I would also like to emphasize quickly, that quashing the violence itself is not the only way to bring about peace. The violence is a symptom of a much greater disease.Treating the protesters with humanity and respecting their rights will abate the violence, but more than anything adequate changes and reforms to the system will turn these protests into a celebration. The government holds tremendous power to quell this violence through peace and justice. I will not demand that the black community turns to peace until they are given justice. Until then, I would rather listen to their voices than interrupt them with my own.

Don't disagree. I don't need to like or support the violence though.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

@permalite I guess you never had a cop pull a gun on you. I was 16 dropping my friend off for a dime sack (10 dollars worth) and in parking lot I had an undercover pull his pistol on back of my head while sitting in my car while I saw swat team go up three flights of stairs to raid weed dealers apartment. Luckily I'm white and I put my hands up right away but one must question why the fuck would a cop have to pull gun on back of head while sitting in my car because of weed.  They eventually let me go because they didn't have shit on me but I was still threatened with gun in back of head because I dropped friend off to get weed.   Shit is fucked up here and that was 1999.

Last edited by sethnintendo - on 03 June 2020

Pemalite said:
sundin13 said:

The way I see it, you are the one who should be asked this question, not me. How many more must die under the injustice of this system, while the peaceful cries of the affected communities are ignored before we get to the point of "by any means"?

One life lost is one life to many.

I guess you expect that answer from someone like me though.

sundin13 said:

Again, I would like to emphasize that I am not pro-violence. I simply choose to blame the system under which violence is inevitable instead of those struggling against it, even if their rage isn't always pointed at the most constructive targets. Anger isn't always channeled logically, even if that anger itself is logical.

I would also like to emphasize quickly, that quashing the violence itself is not the only way to bring about peace. The violence is a symptom of a much greater disease.Treating the protesters with humanity and respecting their rights will abate the violence, but more than anything adequate changes and reforms to the system will turn these protests into a celebration. The government holds tremendous power to quell this violence through peace and justice. I will not demand that the black community turns to peace until they are given justice. Until then, I would rather listen to their voices than interrupt them with my own.

Don't disagree. I don't need to like or support the violence though.

You know what, I'll take it.



Ka-pi96 said:
sethnintendo said:

@permalite I guess you never had a cop pull a gun on you. I was 16 dropping my friend off for a dime sack (10 dollars worth) and in parking lot I had an undercover pull his pistol on back of my head while sitting in my car while I saw swat team go up three flights of stairs to raid weed dealers apartment. Luckily I'm white and I put my hands up right away but one must question why the fuck would a cop have to pull gun on back of head while sitting in my car because of weed.  They eventually let me go because they didn't have shit on me but I was still threatened with gun in back of head because I dropped friend off to get weed.   Shit is fucked up here and that was 1999.

Because the US government is anti-freedom.

I blame training and USA culture.  Cops are trained to treat everyone here as potential threat and easy access to guns make cops even more edgy.  Normal people might be traumatized having gun pulled on them in back of head through back window but that is just everyday thing in USA.  If I was black I'd probably been more scared.  I responded correctly by putting hands up but what other options are there when you have someone pointing gun at back of head.