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Forums - Politics - The US Politics |OT|

Otter on 01 June 2020
KiigelHeart said:
Otter said:

Police are more focused on the peaceful protests then they are the riot zones, and they often escalate the scenarios in the peaceful protests.

But I get your focus but if you set that as the criteria, the protests will always collapse because police do not distinguish between the peaceful and none peaceful. Us focusing on the riots/looting is simply futile. 

Watch at the end when they arrest the man for literally nothing and the majority of footage on twitter is of police turning peaceful protests violent. 

I think the right to protest is important. And I also think it's important that everyone's safe during protests. I don't think protests will always collapse, but surely you can see there's riots escalating in many places atm. It's unfortunately not an ideal time for peaceful protest anymore and police will see gunpowder kegs everywhere. It would be ideal if people undetstood this.

Here's an article on that video. 

https://www.live5news.com/2020/05/31/charleston-police-begin-making-arrests-marion-square/

Protesters were told to leave but they didn't. I like the stuff that guy is saying but even he should understand that's not the time and place for discussion. He was most likely identified as a leader or agitator and thus arrested. 

You really shouldn't blindly buy the narrative some twitter posters are painting. Imagine if the police used short clips with no context to paint a picture of certain events or groups of people..

I'm sorry what? MLK was a leader and agitator, If protestors are not allowed to have a leader then how are they supposed to effectively achieve a goal? But thats exactly what the police do not want to happen.. And of course anyone out on the streets, organising people is an agitator. This is really weak validation for arrest. You warn me about blindly following a narrative before inventing one yourself. Further more without disruption a protest is no more than a petition. 



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Baddman on 01 June 2020

"Certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention" MLK quote all you who love quoting him and using him as an example of how protest should be done need to read



Immersiveunreality on 01 June 2020
Machiavellian said:
Immersiveunreality said:

ALL ACTS Of VIOLENCE ARE DAMN SHAMEFULL BEING ESCALATED OR NOT,THERE IS NO GOOD EXCUSE.

Destroying property of others and hurting unrelated people will not stop the police from killing black and brown people,those people aren't yours and no ones sacrifices to take no matter the cause.

What you have to realize is that Riots do not just happen out of no where.  It usually happens when multiple incidents occurs and nothing has been done to solve the problem.  Once people feel like there is no hope, then violence usually is the result. Rational thinking is the province of people who do not go through the same cycle everyday.  As with most protest that does not have strong leadership, things can quickly explode especially if there is countless incidents that goes on for decades with no resolution.

Also the problem is not isolated to the cop or cops that abuse their power, its the system that allows them to abuse their power and get off scott free.  The city thought that firing the officers would be enough to satisfy people but what really pissed everyone off is that it appeared they would go scott free.  The city did not make it clear that they are investigating the situation also and looking to prosecute.

Last but not least there are other actors out there that want the riot to happen.  There is a video where a huge stack of bricks are place in an area with no construction where protesters are marching.  There are actors out their that want to turn the death of Floyd into a riot so that the focus leaves the police and concentrate on the riot thus starting the cycle again of doing nothing.  Yes, protesters are getting played but thats because there is no strong leadership directing that anger into solid and sustained protest.

Why do you and other defenders of violent acts in these riots just assume i do not realize that,i realize it does not happen out of no where while also finding it very wrong to inflict criminal acts against innocents for the sake of what, ''justice''?

Have you ever been near a violent riot or a you talking about some idyllic fantasy image of it?

After not having had a problem solved for a good while the majority of protesters did it in peace while a minority did shamefull acts mostly out of pure hate not caring for a cause.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 01 June 2020

KLAMarine on 01 June 2020
tsogud said:
Pemalite said:

Not exactly. Those are not my words taken within it's intended context.

And the counter protests CHOSE to pillage, rape, destroy in retaliation. They CHOSE to do that as well.

I am criticizing BOTH sides for their childish bullshit, don't paint me out to be someone Pro-Police or Pro-African American, I am neither.
I don't have a side in this. At. All.

Not exactly. At the end of my shift, I take off my firefighter uniform, I take off my badge.
But I am still a firefighter with certain community expectations and obligations.

There was a big issue here recently in Australia when a Police officer stoned a wombat to death, that police officer was out of uniform, didn't have his badge on... Yet was ridiculed heavily for being a "police officer" that brutally murdered an animal.

Just because you take your uniform off, doesn't mean the expectations stop for certain codes of conducts.

Yes you do. And is EXACTLY what I am proposing if you had bothered to read before jumping the gun.

With all due respect to you, your nation and it's peoples... I couldn't give two shits about the US constitution, it is irrelevant to me as an individual, what a piece of paper says or doesn't say, doesn't mean it is ethically correct or right.

There is historical precedence for certain demographics to be treated unfairly across the planet, but again... There is a right and wrong way to go about things, delving into violence where people are loosing their livelihoods, people are being beaten and raped... Is not okay, was never okay and should not be condoned just because it's a "protest".

Protest the right way, not the violent way.

Demonstrations are generally seen as a democratic right in all free nations and should be defended and protected, but there is simply a line you don't cross... And that line is when it starts to impact on innocent individuals that have nothing to do with it.

Wrong. That is exactly the point.

People need to be "punished" for doing the wrong thing, not punish entire demographic for the actions of a few.

Not all police officers hate, beat, murder African Americans.
And not all African Americans are out on the streets destroying life, property and the environment.

We need to stop painting entire groups with the same colour of brush, regardless of what we call them, that is my point, that is my position.

And you are arguing against that? Common.

Then you're being hypocritical because being queer you should realize that Pride started, not as a parade, but as a riot. A black trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall. In your context that shouldn't have happened and she should've been punished because she broke the law. At least make it make sense.

If you don't give a shit about the US then why are you spewing your useless bs against protests against racism. Why are you telling black Americans how to behave if you don't give a shit?

You were falsely equating a profession with race. My issue is not against your stance that we shouldn't paint all people with the same brush, I agree with that. My issue is you equating a profession with race. They are not the same demographic classification. Race is a protected status and something you can't change, a profession isn't protected and is something you can change. You aren't born a police officer. You're original statement and subsequent defences on that stance are foolish.

While black people are being brutalized by police and protesting for their right to live as they have a duty to as stated in our constitution, you choose to be silent and neutral in their fight. As such you are complicit as well as the police officers who standby and do nothing. Your silence results in violence.

"You were falsely equating a profession with race. My issue is not against your stance that we shouldn't paint all people with the same brush, I agree with that. My issue is you equating a profession with race."

>When it comes to the principle of not painting people with a broad brush, profession and race ARE equal.



Otter on 01 June 2020
EnricoPallazzo said:
Otter said:

I feel like this is ignoring how many have already died through police brutality and had their lives ruined through racial profiling, false imprisonment or unfair sentencing.

The difference between focus is really just highlighting what outcome people are looking for. It feels completely vapid to focus energy on looters and criminals who the justice system is keen on cracking down on anyway. What are you achieving? If the police got their hands on those people they would be thrown in jail without a second thought. The focus should be the attention that will bring about change.

Focus on the institution which is proving itself beyond the law, where officers routinely falsify accounts which are then debunked by footage and they still get let free.

And as of yet I don't believe anyone has died through the action of protestors. Only a drive by shooting (targeting protestors) and another shooting which hasn't been connected with the protest itself. 

So it's a matter a vengeance? Once we have compensated for all lives and imprisonment of the past then it's going to be alright?

And since we had only a few beatings of people till they are almost dead and even elderly people being beaten by a mob then it's ok? 

Anyway, discussing with someone so radical and close minded like you will lead to nowhere. As I said its a divided society, each one picking their sides in the discussion. I hope all the looting and crimes you are defending helps the black community to achieve something at least and not only serve as a tool for white people play politics.

Lol, please stop with the hyperbole. No where did I ask for vengeance or say its okay for an old lady to be assaulted. Nothing I said was radical. I simply responded to your point of how many people will have to die on both sides, as if both sides are on equal footing and as if anyone is dying from the hand of activists.

So again I stress "The difference between focus is really just highlighting what outcome people are looking for"

If you want to identify those people who assaulted that lady, then do that. No one will critique you.

However there doesn't need to be pressure on law enforcement to crack down on violent crime, they do that already. If the identity of those partaking in unprovoked assaults is known, there is no doubt they will face justice. We don't need pressure on that.


However we've seen many times that police officers will be video'd killing an unarmed person and simply get a slap on the writst. Simply be put on leave. Face almost no disciplinary action. Fixing that requires pressure. And god forbid we look at all the cases that aren't video'd and only rely on witness accounts.

There's a much deeper story about overhauling the justice system and mass incarcination, but its really too much to get into right now but this is not just about George Floyd. As recommended before I suggest people watch 13th on Netflix for just a glimpse of what this is about and how current actions of police and judicial sytem are ensuring black communities struggle https://www.netflix.com/de-en/title/80091741



Last edited by Otter - on 01 June 2020

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JRPGfan on 01 June 2020
Otter said:
JRPGfan said:

What the actual f***.

*edit: Dammit Hiku why did you link those things....  I kept watching (scrolling down twitter) and theres like clips of cops getting beat the hell outta on there and dragged through the streets, vids of of a shop owner, takeing a sword to swing at looters, and then getting stomped/kicked until hes dead. WTF.....  Rioting looks crazy.  Too much for me man.

Guys, that guy did not die and he was also confirmed not to be the business owner (he was protecting his favourite bar)

He survived? damn, he looked so messed up, laying there with his arms and legs bent at angled you didnt think possible on a human body.
He wasnt moveing and makeing any sounds (I suppose he might have just lost consciousness).

I just assumed he died from that mobbing.
On the other hand, he has no right to play vigilante, and swing a sword/machete at people looting. So he kinda asked for it. Reguardless of whos bar it was.

Anyways thats good news (i guess).
This protest doesnt need to cost human lives, if at all possible.



tsogud on 01 June 2020
KLAMarine said:
tsogud said:

Then you're being hypocritical because being queer you should realize that Pride started, not as a parade, but as a riot. A black trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall. In your context that shouldn't have happened and she should've been punished because she broke the law. At least make it make sense.

If you don't give a shit about the US then why are you spewing your useless bs against protests against racism. Why are you telling black Americans how to behave if you don't give a shit?

You were falsely equating a profession with race. My issue is not against your stance that we shouldn't paint all people with the same brush, I agree with that. My issue is you equating a profession with race. They are not the same demographic classification. Race is a protected status and something you can't change, a profession isn't protected and is something you can change. You aren't born a police officer. You're original statement and subsequent defences on that stance are foolish.

While black people are being brutalized by police and protesting for their right to live as they have a duty to as stated in our constitution, you choose to be silent and neutral in their fight. As such you are complicit as well as the police officers who standby and do nothing. Your silence results in violence.

"You were falsely equating a profession with race. My issue is not against your stance that we shouldn't paint all people with the same brush, I agree with that. My issue is you equating a profession with race."

>When it comes to the principle of not painting people with a broad brush, profession and race ARE equal.

Both the demographics being discussed are different in principle so equating them, illustrated by that fact alone, is a false equivalency. One you choose to be, the other you don't. And because of this difference they both have different consequences when the act of generalizing people of off one's choice of work vs. one's race is done. They both aren't "equally dangerous" as previously stated. If they were truly equal they'd be equal in basic outcome and consequence as well. As we can see from history this statement doesn't stand scrutiny and thus is a false equivalence. Apples and oranges.

You shouldn't generalize people whatsoever but let's not get it twisted and equate the two as being equally dangerous.

Last edited by tsogud - on 01 June 2020

 

tsogud on 01 June 2020



 

sundin13 on 01 June 2020
tsogud said:

Worth noting that in regards to this incident, two of the officers have been fired (both men of color) and three others have been put on desk duty. Body camera footage has also been released.

https://www.cbs46.com/news/atlanta-officers-fired-after-college-students-tased-pulled-from-car-saturday-night/article_837b61b4-a383-11ea-bdd0-b7b23b6df8e3.html



tsogud on 01 June 2020