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tsogud said:

You are falsely equating a profession, with which you have a choice, with a racial group, with which you don't.

Not exactly. Those are not my words taken within it's intended context.

tsogud said:

How can that make sense to you?? They chose to be a cop, they chose to take and follow an oath to protect the citizens of their country not murder them, they chose to stay silent and standby while someone was getting murdered.

And the counter protests CHOSE to pillage, rape, destroy in retaliation. They CHOSE to do that as well.

I am criticizing BOTH sides for their childish bullshit, don't paint me out to be someone Pro-Police or Pro-African American, I am neither.
I don't have a side in this. At. All.

tsogud said:

Their badge comes off at the end of their shift or when they quit or get fired, but black people cannot take off their skin when they're tired of the injustices. They are themselves 24/7 and because of that they're callously targeted by an oppressive system day in and day out. How can you seriously equate the two and treat it as if they don't have any major difference??

Not exactly. At the end of my shift, I take off my firefighter uniform, I take off my badge.
But I am still a firefighter with certain community expectations and obligations.

There was a big issue here recently in Australia when a Police officer stoned a wombat to death, that police officer was out of uniform, didn't have his badge on... Yet was ridiculed heavily for being a "police officer" that brutally murdered an animal.

Just because you take your uniform off, doesn't mean the expectations stop for certain codes of conducts.

tsogud said:

We need major criminal justice reform in America and defunding of the police across the board to ever hope to stop the problem of police brutality that's been going on for decades. The system is broken and has been broken for far too long.

Yes you do. And is EXACTLY what I am proposing if you had bothered to read before jumping the gun.

tsogud said:

In our constitution it says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

With all due respect to you, your nation and it's peoples... I couldn't give two shits about the US constitution, it is irrelevant to me as an individual, what a piece of paper says or doesn't say, doesn't mean it is ethically correct or right.

tsogud said:

The current system of governance has never appropriately and fairly secured these unalienable rights for black people in this country. EVERY. SINGLE. INSTITUTION. Whether it's housing, education, the crimal justice system, etc. has systematically, overtly and covertly, targeted black and brown people in America for centuries. Until there's justice there can never truly be any peace.

There is historical precedence for certain demographics to be treated unfairly across the planet, but again... There is a right and wrong way to go about things, delving into violence where people are loosing their livelihoods, people are being beaten and raped... Is not okay, was never okay and should not be condoned just because it's a "protest".

Protest the right way, not the violent way.

KLAMarine said:

"As for the second bit, maybe if this wasn't a problem that had been going on for generations I would be able to agree with you. I would like it if people protested the "right" way, however, we have largely seen that protesting the "right" way hasn't worked."

>The LA riots of the 90s didn't seem to do a thing to prevent Floyd's death either. Maybe rioting and looting isn't the way either?

Demonstrations are generally seen as a democratic right in all free nations and should be defended and protected, but there is simply a line you don't cross... And that line is when it starts to impact on innocent individuals that have nothing to do with it.

tsogud said:

No. That's not the point because he would have said that. He used specific words like "equally dangerous" to describe painting all people of a certain profession one way to being racist. They're not the same thing at all.

And that's not even the issue or concern I raised. So if that is his point then he's attacking a straw man because in nowhere in my posts did I paint all cops with the same brush. The problem I was talking about is the system of governance and the institution itself in combination with America's systematic racism is what leads to the kind of police brutality we see.

Wrong. That is exactly the point.

People need to be "punished" for doing the wrong thing, not punish entire demographic for the actions of a few.

Not all police officers hate, beat, murder African Americans.
And not all African Americans are out on the streets destroying life, property and the environment.

We need to stop painting entire groups with the same colour of brush, regardless of what we call them, that is my point, that is my position.

And you are arguing against that? Common.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 01 June 2020

--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Otter said:
JRPGfan said:

What the actual f***.

*edit: Dammit Hiku why did you link those things....  I kept watching (scrolling down twitter) and theres like clips of cops getting beat the hell outta on there and dragged through the streets, vids of of a shop owner, takeing a sword to swing at looters, and then getting stomped/kicked until hes dead. WTF.....  Rioting looks crazy.  Too much for me man.

Guys, that guy did not die and he was also confirmed not to be the business owner (he was protecting his favourite bar)

Doesn't really make it any less crazy, does it?

Goes to show that there's people getting hurt and while some try to fuel a war against cops, the police are still responsible for keeping people and property safe. As unorganized they seem to be in this mayhem, not an easy situation.

I wrote it before and I'll write it again, any peaceful protestors should leave riot zones. There seems to be more than plenty aggressive protestors around. It's already a mess and will only get worse.



KiigelHeart said:

Doesn't really make it any less crazy, does it?

Goes to show that there's people getting hurt and while some try to fuel a war against cops, the police are still responsible for keeping people and property safe. As unorganized they seem to be in this mayhem, not an easy situation.

I wrote it before and I'll write it again, any peaceful protestors should leave riot zones. There seems to be more than plenty aggressive protestors around. It's already a mess and will only get worse.

Police are more focused on the peaceful protests then they are the riot zones, and they often escalate the scenarios in the peaceful protests.

But I get your focus but if you set that as the criteria, the protests will always collapse because police do not distinguish between the peaceful and none peaceful. Us focusing on the riots/looting is simply futile. 

Watch at the end when they arrest the man for literally nothing and the majority of footage on twitter is of police turning peaceful protests violent. 

Last edited by Otter - on 01 June 2020

Interesting that some people focus on the police crimes and violence. Others focus on the looters/criminals arson and mass beatings of innocent people. Just saw a video of like 10 guys beating an elderly lady which was trying to peacefully defend her business. We definitely live in a divided society. I wonder how many will have to die on both sides until this ends.



tsogud said:
KLAMarine said:

Anything in particular you wanted to bring to my attention?

Yeah. Stop using Dr. MLK Jr's life and teachings disingenuously. There's a thread there for you.

What's disingenuous about saying Dr. King based his movement on non-violence?



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Immersiveunreality said:
tsogud said:

@bolded: Where in my posts did I say or even hint at that??? Every single protest was nonviolent until police escalated the situation.

And there are numerous accounts and videos of white nationalists and undercover cops vandalizing shops and causing mayhem to muddy the waters and the protesters tried to stop them. These protests are completely valid and were nonviolent until agitators stirred things up.

THE POLICE NEED TO STOP KILLING BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE. IT'S NON-NEGOTIABLE!

ALL ACTS Of VIOLENCE ARE DAMN SHAMEFULL BEING ESCALATED OR NOT,THERE IS NO GOOD EXCUSE.

Destroying property of others and hurting unrelated people will not stop the police from killing black and brown people,those people aren't yours and no ones sacrifices to take no matter the cause.

What you have to realize is that Riots do not just happen out of no where.  It usually happens when multiple incidents occurs and nothing has been done to solve the problem.  Once people feel like there is no hope, then violence usually is the result. Rational thinking is the province of people who do not go through the same cycle everyday.  As with most protest that does not have strong leadership, things can quickly explode especially if there is countless incidents that goes on for decades with no resolution.

Also the problem is not isolated to the cop or cops that abuse their power, its the system that allows them to abuse their power and get off scott free.  The city thought that firing the officers would be enough to satisfy people but what really pissed everyone off is that it appeared they would go scott free.  The city did not make it clear that they are investigating the situation also and looking to prosecute.

Last but not least there are other actors out there that want the riot to happen.  There is a video where a huge stack of bricks are place in an area with no construction where protesters are marching.  There are actors out their that want to turn the death of Floyd into a riot so that the focus leaves the police and concentrate on the riot thus starting the cycle again of doing nothing.  Yes, protesters are getting played but thats because there is no strong leadership directing that anger into solid and sustained protest.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6gz5Q_SYx0



EnricoPallazzo said:
Interesting that some people focus on the police crimes and violence. Others focus on the looters/criminals arson and mass beatings of innocent people. Just saw a video of like 10 guys beating an elderly lady which was trying to peacefully defend her business. We definitely live in a divided society. I wonder how many will have to die on both sides until this ends.

I feel like this is ignoring how many have already died through police brutality and had their lives ruined through racial profiling, false imprisonment or unfair sentencing.

The difference between focus is really just highlighting what outcome people are looking for. It feels completely vapid to focus energy on looters and criminals who the justice system is keen on cracking down on anyway. What are you achieving? If the police got their hands on those people they would be thrown in jail without a second thought. The focus should be the attention that will bring about change.

Focus on the institution which is proving itself beyond the law, where officers routinely falsify accounts which are then debunked by footage and they still get let free.

And as of yet I don't believe anyone has died through the action of protestors. Only a drive by shooting (targeting protestors) and another shooting which hasn't been connected with the protest itself. 



Pemalite said:

tsogud said:

No. That's not the point because he would have said that. He used specific words like "equally dangerous" to describe painting all people of a certain profession one way to being racist. They're not the same thing at all.

And that's not even the issue or concern I raised. So if that is his point then he's attacking a straw man because in nowhere in my posts did I paint all cops with the same brush. The problem I was talking about is the system of governance and the institution itself in combination with America's systematic racism is what leads to the kind of police brutality we see.

Wrong. That is exactly the point.

People need to be "punished" for doing the wrong thing, not punish entire demographic for the actions of a few.

Not all police officers hate, beat, murder African Americans.
And not all African Americans are out on the streets destroying life, property and the environment.

We need to stop painting entire groups with the same colour of brush, regardless of what we call them, that is my point, that is my position.

And you are arguing against that? Common.

Its not that people paint all police as racist, hateful or anything along those lines.  The problem is that there is a system within the police that make them defend other police, even when they do something that tarnish the police force.  People have talked about this many times when other police officers see another police doing wrong, being quiet, saying nothing or lying for them make them complicit.  This is the reason why all police get painted with the same brush because the so called good cops say nothing, the inbetween will vouch for the bad or lie.  I had this conversation with another friend of mine who is from the military who have the same mentality.  I stated to them cops cannot have a creed that protest individuals because it allows them all to be painted for one bad apple.  Instead they need a creed that protect the police force.  Letting all members know what will not be tolerated and tarnish the police force and thus their jobs.  Until that type of thinking happens we will continue to see this cycle of bad police tarnishing everyone within a department because no one is willing to stand up and say enough.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 01 June 2020

Otter said:
KiigelHeart said:

Doesn't really make it any less crazy, does it?

Goes to show that there's people getting hurt and while some try to fuel a war against cops, the police are still responsible for keeping people and property safe. As unorganized they seem to be in this mayhem, not an easy situation.

I wrote it before and I'll write it again, any peaceful protestors should leave riot zones. There seems to be more than plenty aggressive protestors around. It's already a mess and will only get worse.

Police are more focused on the peaceful protests then they are the riot zones, and they often escalate the scenarios in the peaceful protests.

But I get your focus but if you set that as the criteria, the protests will always collapse because police do not distinguish between the peaceful and none peaceful. Us focusing on the riots/looting is simply futile. 

Watch at the end when they arrest the man for literally nothing and the majority of footage on twitter is of police turning peaceful protests violent. 

I think the right to protest is important. And I also think it's important that everyone's safe during protests. I don't think protests will always collapse, but surely you can see there's riots escalating in many places atm. It's unfortunately not an ideal time for peaceful protest anymore and police will see gunpowder kegs everywhere. It would be ideal if people undetstood this.

Here's an article on that video. 

https://www.live5news.com/2020/05/31/charleston-police-begin-making-arrests-marion-square/

Protesters were told to leave but they didn't. I like the stuff that guy is saying but even he should understand that's not the time and place for discussion. He was most likely identified as a leader or agitator and thus arrested. 

You really shouldn't blindly buy the narrative some twitter posters are painting. Imagine if the police used short clips with no context to paint a picture of certain events or groups of people..