By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

I keep seeing Europe and mention of their free schooling as justification for the current suggestion of just forgiving all these student loans.

You are comparing a process that is already in place, and everybody has the process to now take advantage of...to a process that only impacts the people who made worse decisions.

I know we have already had this discussion, but what exactly happens to the people who made shitty decisions, and just get all of that debt forgiven? What sort of life lesson does that teach them?



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Around the Network
RJTM1991 said:
SpokenTruth said:

Dude, you need to recognize the difference between an economy and a government power.  Socialism is an economic system.  The problems in Venezuela are governmental. Yes, their economy has many aspects of socialism but it is the government itself (who controls that economy through authoritative means) that is the cause of their strife.

But please, tell us again how it is socialism itself that is the problem.  We'll wait.

Hmm, who to believe... A Venezuelan or a guy who lives in a bubble on a gaming forum?

HMM... Who. To. Believe?

I'm going with the guy who has been there and knows what he's talking about.

Below

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

This is why socialism doesn't work well, even in smaller doses. Most people who are intelligent, hard working, good decision makers, etc, won't put up with this. It's one thing to help the needy on a personal level, and another for Gov to heavily promote making bad decisions. The more socialist idea's that get implemented, the more the people propping everyone else up will stop caring, and soon enough you run out of money because literally everyone expects free Gov handouts. Why bother trying to make something of yourself now, when all you need to do is bide your time until you can have your mistakes and poor decisions erased by some politician?

The unfortunate truth is that people need to learn, and sometimes the hard way, which is baked into capitalism.

You've never been to western Europe, have you?



SpokenTruth said:
Baalzamon said:
I keep seeing Europe and mention of their free schooling as justification for the current suggestion of just forgiving all these student loans.

You are comparing a process that is already in place, and everybody has the process to now take advantage of...to a process that only impacts the people who made worse decisions.

I know we have already had this discussion, but what exactly happens to the people who made shitty decisions, and just get all of that debt forgiven? What sort of life lesson does that teach them?

That our hyper-capitalistic society that profits from debt is failing us and that it celebrates profit generation over education.


"Hey, let's all get educated for the betterment of society but only if you can afford it.  If you can't afford it, you can't help further our progress."

Are we just going to ignore the fact that K-12 is already socialized?  I'd really love to hear 1 solid reason why it should end there. 

Why don't students all get the same grades?

Is it that some are better than others in ways, or is the system flawed?



SpokenTruth said:
RJTM1991 said:

People shouldn't expect easy bail outs for doing stupid shit. That's getting their cake and eating it at the same time.

One of the biggest lies you can tell a kid these days is that they "can be anything they want" when they grow up. In some cases, if they're privileged enough, it's true, but in most, it's not.

An example, I went to college and studied art. A totally fucking useless thing. Stupid. I should've become an electrician, or a plumber, or something that I could actually make a living out of. Instead, I wasted my time on something that I'd have to catch lightning in a bottle to make a career with.

Like the morons who choose gender studies, then wonder why they're back living with their parents, have no money, and a ton of debt. We've got no-one to blame but ourselves and expecting others to pay for our mistakes is an insult.

Ah, more presumptions.  The facts show that most underemployed graduates did not come from liberal arts degrees but business, management, health, education and psychology.  Of those degrees, over 900,000 were underemployed 5 years post graduation.  Of those with liberal arts, sciences, general studies and humanities, only 18,000 were underemployed after the same 5 year period.  English and language degrees?  16,000 underemployed.

https://www.burning-glass.com/wp-content/uploads/permanent_detour_underemployment_report.pdf [PDF]

But keep telling us about how the liberal arts students are the ones begging for hand outs for bad decisions.

Presumptions? Man, it happened to me. Can you not read? That's what I went through. I live in the world where your reports, polls, and surveys don't matter.

Always nice to have a Champagne Socialist with no real world experience talk down to you, isn't it?

Oh, and yes, they are the ones begging. There's a reason why Democrats are using it as a talking point. Shamelessly pandering to them.



SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

Why don't students all get the same grades?

Is it that some are better than others in ways, or is the system flawed?

Oh, here you go again with your head scratching analogies.  Can you elaborate on how this is relevant?

What about the less intelligent people? Feeling lesser due to poorer grades. Feeling lesser because they know to a certain degree their future is likely more bleak.

Why are we allowing these intelligent people to hold their intelligence over others? Why do those intelligent people need to awarded with higher grades?



Around the Network
SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

What about the less intelligent people? Feeling lesser due to poorer grades. Feeling lesser because they know to a certain degree their future is likely more bleak.

Why are we allowing these intelligent people to hold their intelligence over others? Why do those intelligent people need to awarded with higher grades?

Let's try this again.  How are the grades of the intelligent and less intelligent students relevant to funding post-K-12 education?

SpokenTruth said:
Baalzamon said:
I keep seeing Europe and mention of their free schooling as justification for the current suggestion of just forgiving all these student loans.

You are comparing a process that is already in place, and everybody has the process to now take advantage of...to a process that only impacts the people who made worse decisions.

I know we have already had this discussion, but what exactly happens to the people who made shitty decisions, and just get all of that debt forgiven? What sort of life lesson does that teach them?

That our hyper-capitalistic society that profits from debt is failing us and that it celebrates profit generation over education.


"Hey, let's all get educated for the betterment of society but only if you can afford it.  If you can't afford it, you can't help further our progress."

Are we just going to ignore the fact that K-12 is already socialized?  I'd really love to hear 1 solid reason why it should end there. 

"That our hyper-capitalistic society that profits from debt is failing us and that it celebrates profit generation over education."


""Hey, let's all get educated for the betterment of society but only if you can afford it.  If you can't afford it, you can't help further our progress.""

"Are we just going to ignore the fact that K-12 is already socialized?  I'd really love to hear 1 solid reason why it should end there."



EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

Let's try this again.  How are the grades of the intelligent and less intelligent students relevant to funding post-K-12 education?

SpokenTruth said:

That our hyper-capitalistic society that profits from debt is failing us and that it celebrates profit generation over education.


"Hey, let's all get educated for the betterment of society but only if you can afford it.  If you can't afford it, you can't help further our progress."

Are we just going to ignore the fact that K-12 is already socialized?  I'd really love to hear 1 solid reason why it should end there. 

"That our hyper-capitalistic society that profits from debt is failing us and that it celebrates profit generation over education."


""Hey, let's all get educated for the betterment of society but only if you can afford it.  If you can't afford it, you can't help further our progress.""

"Are we just going to ignore the fact that K-12 is already socialized?  I'd really love to hear 1 solid reason why it should end there."

SpokenTruth said:
You quoted it, highlighted it and copied it but still didn't elaborate on the connection. Do you have a connection to make or are you just reaching?

You want a more equal society, yet you're ok with teaching kids growing up, that it's ok if not great to use their capabilities and the school system to do better for themselves in comparison to others?

Then once they're done school, you want to teach them that was all B.S, and that they aren't any better than anyone else, and need to blend in or pay the price to others for trying to be better than them?



SpokenTruth said:
RJTM1991 said:

Presumptions? Man, it happened to me. Can you not read? That's what I went through. I live in the world where your reports, polls, and surveys don't matter.

Always nice to have a Champagne Socialist with no real world experience talk down to you, isn't it?

Oh, and yes, they are the ones begging. There's a reason why Democrats are using it as a talking point. Shamelessly pandering to them.

Yes, it's a presumption.  It's a presumption that your individual case is representative of the whole.  It's a presumption that you're 1 out of 18,000 underemployed art students is somehow a greater number than the 900,000 graduates with business, management, health, education and psychology degrees.

Hey, you and 18,000 other art students didn't fine valid work after graduation.  That sucks and I do absolutely empathize with you.  You put time, money, energy and personal emotions (that's part of art) but it didn't pan out like you hoped it would.  You and 18,000 others. 

But look at that other group.  900,000.  Those aren't liberal arts degree students.  That's 50 times the number of students that need help than your group.

So no, I'm not talking down to you or your experience especially given I'm on of those "leftists, ignorant assholes" (as Melbye would put it) trying to help you out...with my own taxes.

Don't, my man. It was my mistake. I was younger, stupid, and should've chose another path. I know that now, and that's the important thing. No-one else should have to pay the bill. I couldn't sit back and live through other people's generosity. That's just... not right. Shit, that makes me little more than an e-thot. As a man, you have to keep going until things work out.

I mean, they did, I'm a carer now. I'm content.

I went to school with a girl who wound up at University. Frighteningly intelligent. She made some mistakes, chose something stupid, wound up £10,000 in debt, and is now serving tea in a hotel restaurant. Another girl who lived two doors down went to the same University, chose something stupid, and ended up stacking shelves in ASDA.

Smart girls, but what they specialize in isn't needed. Again, it goes back to telling kids that they can be anything they want.



EricHiggin said:
LurkerJ said:

A father confronted Warren during an event in Grimes, Iowa, on Monday about her plan to roll back student loan debt for “about 95 percent of students who have debt.” “I just wanted to ask one question. My daughter is getting out of school. I’ve saved all my money. She doesn’t have any student loans. Am I going to get my money back?” he asked.

“Of course not,” Warren replied.

“So you’re going to pay for people who didn’t save any money and those of us who did the right thing get screwed?” he asked. “My buddy had fun, bought a car, and went on all the vacations, I saved my money. He makes more than I did. I worked a double shift,” the man pressed before accusing Warren of not taking him seriously. “You’re laughing at me,” he said. “Yeah that’s exactly what you’re doing. We did the right thing and we get screwed.”

“I appreciate your time,” Warren stated as he walked away

I think this man makes a valid point and there a discussion to be had about debt forgiveness for those who already paid their debts. 

This is why socialism doesn't work well, even in smaller doses. Most people who are intelligent, hard working, good decision makers, etc, won't put up with this. It's one thing to help the needy on a personal level, and another for Gov to heavily promote making bad decisions. The more socialist idea's that get implemented, the more the people propping everyone else up will stop caring, and soon enough you run out of money because literally everyone expects free Gov handouts. Why bother trying to make something of yourself now, when all you need to do is bide your time until you can have your mistakes and poor decisions erased by some politician?

The unfortunate truth is that people need to learn, and sometimes the hard way, which is baked into capitalism.

Lmao nope. I wouldn't describe that man as any of those descriptions you listed.

All I see is a supposedly "grown" ass man being selfish and throwing a temper tantrum because society is improving.

I guess we shouldn't find a cure for cancer because it wouldn't be fair to those who had died from it before.

A mature, intelligent, compassionate and empathetic person would want others to have it easier than they did especially when they know how tough it could be and how much worse other people have it.

Capitalism as we used to know it is on it's way out and it's for the better.



 

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

You want a more equal society, yet you're ok with teaching kids growing up, that it's ok if not great to use their capabilities and the school system to do better for themselves in comparison to others?

Then once they're done school, you want to teach them that was all B.S, and that they aren't any better than anyone else, and need to blend in or pay the price to others for trying to be better than them?

Ah, reaching then.  Because not only is that irrelevant to the original discussion (it's damn near a non-sequitur) it's also a horrible mischaracterization of my stance on who is a valid member and contributor of a society.

Do you intentionally reach for these hot takes?

SpokenTruth said:
Baalzamon said:
I keep seeing Europe and mention of their free schooling as justification for the current suggestion of just forgiving all these student loans.

You are comparing a process that is already in place, and everybody has the process to now take advantage of...to a process that only impacts the people who made worse decisions.

I know we have already had this discussion, but what exactly happens to the people who made shitty decisions, and just get all of that debt forgiven? What sort of life lesson does that teach them?

That our hyper-capitalistic society that profits from debt is failing us and that it celebrates profit generation over education.


"Hey, let's all get educated for the betterment of society but only if you can afford it.  If you can't afford it, you can't help further our progress."

Are we just going to ignore the fact that K-12 is already socialized?  I'd really love to hear 1 solid reason why it should end there. 

"Hey, let's all get unequally educated, because the system is 'flawed' and people are different. If you can't get good grades, you can't have a better life."

Kinda sounds like evil capitalist reasoning that sticks with kids as they become adults...

Can't wait for classes where the smart kids are ignored so the less intelligent kids can have all the one on one time. I'm sure after 10-12 years of that, and after generations, those kids are going to have the collective brains and drive to truly change the world.