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Last edited by DeletedAccount3 - on 17 January 2020Biggerboat1 said:
What negative traits, if any, do you think Trump has relative to his peers? |
That he's working for one of the largest 'companies' on the planet, and has around 300 million bosses to please, and practically does so for free?
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Overall, my take on the recent trade deal announcements (China deal and new NAFTA) is that both of them are positive steps, but they fall miles short of the radical re-imagining of economic systems, or the economic relationship between countries that Trump seemed to be aiming for. There will likely be small scale positive effects in specific areas of the US economy, but it is unlikely to significantly alter the economy at large. It seems predictions related to growth have largely remained in place, with many economists stating that the most significant change is a decrease in uncertainty and a decrease in tariffs (both solving problems that Trump created) while the actual text of the deal seems to be expected to have a much more minor impact.
I struggle to see this as a win for Trump. We went into this trade war with some fairly largely demands, and what we received at the end is a step towards normal in return for some minor agreements that wouldn't be surprising to see in the absence of this whole debacle.
| sundin13 said: Overall, my take on the recent trade deal announcements (China deal and new NAFTA) is that both of them are positive steps, but they fall miles short of the radical re-imagining of economic systems, or the economic relationship between countries that Trump seemed to be aiming for. There will likely be small scale positive effects in specific areas of the US economy, but it is unlikely to significantly alter the economy at large. It seems predictions related to growth have largely remained in place, with many economists stating that the most significant change is a decrease in uncertainty and a decrease in tariffs (both solving problems that Trump created) while the actual text of the deal seems to be expected to have a much more minor impact. I struggle to see this as a win for Trump. We went into this trade war with some fairly largely demands, and what we received at the end is a step towards normal in return for some minor agreements that wouldn't be surprising to see in the absence of this whole debacle. |
That's how a good businessman operates. You always ask for a little too much, knowing full well you're never going to get it. The point is that if you only ask for a little, you likely will get nothing. If you ask for a reasonable amount, you'll get a little. If you ask for way too much, you'll again, get nothing. If you ask for a little too much, you can now negotiate, and will end up closer to the reasonable amount you should be getting. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.
Sounds here like he got a little less, but is in the range of what was seen as an acceptable compromise. If it wasn't, the deal wouldn't have gone through.
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EricHiggin said:
That's how a good businessman operates. You always ask for a little too much, knowing full well you're never going to get it. The point is that if you only ask for a little, you likely will get nothing. If you ask for a reasonable amount, you'll get a little. If you ask for way too much, you'll again, get nothing. If you ask for a little too much, you can now negotiate, and will end up closer to the reasonable amount you should be getting. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. Sounds here like he got a little less, but is in the range of what was seen as an acceptable compromise. If it wasn't, the deal wouldn't have gone through. |
I think there are a whole basket of reasons why that comparison is bad.
First off, this stuff that Trump said he wanted wasn't just something he said to Xi, it is something he said to the American people. Some people voted for him because they thought that he would bring in a radical reshaping of our trade policies. He has not. In politics, you have to be mindful of the people you are representing. If you oversell as a "negotiation tactic", you aren't just playing businessman, you are lying to your constituents.
And second, I honestly don't buy for a second that it was all a negotiation tactic. You have to take into account exactly how we got here. The radical steps, the trade wars, the billion dollar bailouts for farmers, the hit taken to our GDP and the damage done to the global economy. You don't set the bridge on fire for a small nod. If you do, you are an idiot. Like I said before, this is the type of deal that could come out of a good negotiation without the self-inflicted wounds. To only get this out of it, it demonstrates to me that Trump realized he was in too deep and pulled out because he needed a win and realized that his over-the-top measures weren't working. He basically hobbled across the point where he started and pointed at how far he had come, when really 99% of that journey was just climbing back up the cliff he threw himself off...
sundin13 said:
I think there are a whole basket of reasons why that comparison is bad. First off, this stuff that Trump said he wanted wasn't just something he said to Xi, it is something he said to the American people. Some people voted for him because they thought that he would bring in a radical reshaping of our trade policies. He has not. In politics, you have to be mindful of the people you are representing. If you oversell as a "negotiation tactic", you aren't just playing businessman, you are lying to your constituents. And second, I honestly don't buy for a second that it was all a negotiation tactic. You have to take into account exactly how we got here. The radical steps, the trade wars, the billion dollar bailouts for farmers, the hit taken to our GDP and the damage done to the global economy. You don't set the bridge on fire for a small nod. If you do, you are an idiot. Like I said before, this is the type of deal that could come out of a good negotiation without the self-inflicted wounds. To only get this out of it, it demonstrates to me that Trump realized he was in too deep and pulled out because he needed a win and realized that his over-the-top measures weren't working. He basically hobbled across the point where he started and pointed at how far he had come, when really 99% of that journey was just climbing back up the cliff he threw himself off... |
Yes, Trump at times acts like he's greater than God, performing miracles. Everyone knows that's B.S, but it does project confidence and strength, which works for many. Nobody, or very few possibly, backing Trump, actually believe he's going to completely change the system. At best he's going to be able to get the train back on the tracks, and maybe make some headway if he get's a second term, maybe.
It likely is. I'm looking for a clip I saw quite a while back but can't find it. I thought it was McConnell, yet I'm having trouble finding it because it maybe it wasn't him, but it's definitely of somebody who's around Trump, and they talk about Trumps negotiation tactics and that he always goes a little overboard so that he actually get's what he wants in the end, which has been working for him. You let the other side think they've beaten you down to a point you're finally willing to take the much lesser amount they want to give you, when really that's exactly what you wanted in the first place.
You also initially said you have a hard time seeing this as a win for Trump, yet you just said it was a win for Trump. So is it a win or not?
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EricHiggin said:
Yes, Trump at times acts like he's greater than God, performing miracles. Everyone knows that's B.S, but it does project confidence and strength, which works for many. Nobody, or very few possibly, backing Trump, actually believe he's going to completely change the system. At best he's going to be able to get the train back on the tracks, and maybe make some headway if he get's a second term, maybe. It likely is. I'm looking for a clip I saw quite a while back but can't find it. I thought it was McConnell, yet I'm having trouble finding it because it maybe it wasn't him, but it's definitely of somebody who's around Trump, and they talk about Trumps negotiation tactics and that he always goes a little overboard so that he actually get's what he wants in the end, which has been working for him. You let the other side think they've beaten you down to a point you're finally willing to take the much lesser amount they want to give you, when really that's exactly what you wanted in the first place. You also initially said you have a hard time seeing this as a win for Trump, yet you just said it was a win for Trump. So is it a win or not? |
This isn't the clip but I watched it around the same time as the other so think I'm getting close. Trump first off won't admit he's asking for a little too much but if you read into what he says, he is implying he's asking for a little too much. The fact he says he won't just make a deal shows that China is just a tough negotiator and Trump is below the threshold for where he actually wants the deal to end up.
This clip is from August 2019, so odds are good based on the latest news, that Trump finally got China to give up a little more, which put him where he wanted to be. No point in continuing and trying to take too much. Make a reasonable deal and move forward.
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PRO -%-We must build a console that's VR ready, checkerboard upscales, and sells but a fraction of the money printer.
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PRO -&- We must build a console that Super Res upscales and continues the cost increases.
| EricHiggin said:
You also initially said you have a hard time seeing this as a win for Trump, yet you just said it was a win for Trump. So is it a win or not? |
I am not saying that it was a win in reality, I am saying that Trump is going to sell it as if it were one. Same as many of his "win"s. He creates a problem, solves that problem (or makes it worse), and sells it to his supporters as if he just did something amazing. He is a snake oil salesman. Nothing more.
This deal isn't worth the trouble we went through to get there, and it sure as shit isn't what he has been selling the American people. Stop saying "Thank You" when he lies to your face. The excuses people make for his bullshit are too much. He is lying, and he has been lying since day one. Nobody is even trying to deny that fact anymore. Demand better or bullshit is all you will ever get.