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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

Mnementh said:
Moren said:

Yep. That's me. I'd vote for a combination of Dick Cheney, Ronald Reagan, Mitch McConnell, and Newt Gingrich if I could.

Then again, that's basically what Biden is.

The hostility from these Biden-bros is really convincing people to vote for him.

I don't need to get the German vote, thankfully.



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tsogud said:
Moren said:

That's great! Biden has been compromising with the left in bankruptcy, college affordability, and so on, and it's not even May.

Yeah I've seen some give and it is actually pretty good by November I hope he's on board for M4A and bold action to combat climate change. I believe those are winning positions.

I know the primary is still raw for some people, but the idea of just not voting for a candidate because you don’t like some of their policies is why we have trump as president right now.  A lot of democrats stayed home last election, especially in the rust belt, because they didn’t like Hillary.  While Hillary was a terrible candidate, do you think she would have done as much to sabotage health care and climate change as trump has?  Those are the two stated policies you seem to care most about.  On one hand you have somebody who is actively working against your ideas, and one person who supports your ideas, but doesn’t go far enough...  Seems pretty clear cut that you should vote for Biden. Not voting is a vote for trump.    



gergroy said:
tsogud said:

Yeah I've seen some give and it is actually pretty good by November I hope he's on board for M4A and bold action to combat climate change. I believe those are winning positions.

I know the primary is still raw for some people, but the idea of just not voting for a candidate because you don’t like some of their policies is why we have trump as president right now.  A lot of democrats stayed home last election, especially in the rust belt, because they didn’t like Hillary.  While Hillary was a terrible candidate, do you think she would have done as much to sabotage health care and climate change as trump has?  Those are the two stated policies you seem to care most about.  On one hand you have somebody who is actively working against your ideas, and one person who supports your ideas, but doesn’t go far enough...  Seems pretty clear cut that you should vote for Biden. Not voting is a vote for trump.    

Is there a specific term for this phenomenon? I'm not an American, but the concept of left/centrist leaning individuals not wanting to compromise on some issues and indirectly contributing to the election of an ideological opponent (whose base is more "forgiving" for the lack of a better word) is something that seems to happen in many countries.



Shadow1980 said:
Mnementh said:

Sorry, this isn't how it works. Biden isn't entitled to get progressive votes. He has to earn them. Like Bernie needed to earn the votes of more conservatives voters in the primary and failed. But that doesn't mean a single progressive is forced to vote for Biden. People have the freedom to choose whoever they want and it is Biden's job to get these votes.

Oh, but it most certainly is how it works.

As I said, you play the game by the rules as they are, not by how you wish the rules to be. In the United States, every election is a zero-sum contest! I wish we had systems of proportional representation for legislative elections like you have in Germany, but we don't. I wish we had some sort of ranked-choice system for presidential, gubernatorial, and Senate elections, but we don't. If a voter doesn't like Trump, then they need to look at it this way: their only choices are "Vote to remove Trump from office" or "Don't vote to remove Trump from office." Every progressive that doesn't vote Democrat puts the Republicans one vote closer to victory. In our system of government, with our system of rules, this is the reality.

Well, it is one thing, that the election system is bad and needs reform. But the more important thing is, what people want and why they vote. Yes, you can try to scare people into voting, but guess what, that game both Trump and Clinton played last time by declaring voting for the other would bring about hell. Trump is also not the first worst president ever, I remember W., and his father and Reagan. But the thing is, that a democratic president didn't make things better for many people. Many people out there are disillusioned.

You have to ask yourself, why does for instance Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez puts this line in her ad for the primaries: "But after 20 years of same representation, we have to ask: who has New York been changing for?" and wins the primary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq3QXIVR0bs&t=37

The reality for so many people is, if it is democrats or republicans are governing, the differences are negligable, and these people ask: why should we vote for anothe rguy who doesn't want to change anything for us, make our life better? You don't have to tell them that Trump is worse, because in their reality he isn't, he is the same basically. Instead you should focus on trying to convince people to vote for Biden. Explain them how it does help them get a better life. If you don't do that, they will stay home and you're right, this will help Trump win again. But I don't blame them and you shouldn't either. Because it is up to Biden and his campaign and his supporters to make a convincing argument why the progressives, the poor, the working class should vote for Biden. Avoid Trump will not cut it as argument. That may be enough for the middle class, white collar jobs to convince them, because it may have actual impact. But for the poor it doesn't. So if your only argument is to prevent Trump, you already have lost the election.



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Mnementh said:
Shadow1980 said:

Oh, but it most certainly is how it works.

As I said, you play the game by the rules as they are, not by how you wish the rules to be. In the United States, every election is a zero-sum contest! I wish we had systems of proportional representation for legislative elections like you have in Germany, but we don't. I wish we had some sort of ranked-choice system for presidential, gubernatorial, and Senate elections, but we don't. If a voter doesn't like Trump, then they need to look at it this way: their only choices are "Vote to remove Trump from office" or "Don't vote to remove Trump from office." Every progressive that doesn't vote Democrat puts the Republicans one vote closer to victory. In our system of government, with our system of rules, this is the reality.

Well, it is one thing, that the election system is bad and needs reform. But the more important thing is, what people want and why they vote. Yes, you can try to scare people into voting, but guess what, that game both Trump and Clinton played last time by declaring voting for the other would bring about hell. Trump is also not the first worst president ever, I remember W., and his father and Reagan. But the thing is, that a democratic president didn't make things better for many people. Many people out there are disillusioned.

You have to ask yourself, why does for instance Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez puts this line in her ad for the primaries: "But after 20 years of same representation, we have to ask: who has New York been changing for?" and wins the primary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq3QXIVR0bs&t=37

The reality for so many people is, if it is democrats or republicans are governing, the differences are negligable, and these people ask: why should we vote for anothe rguy who doesn't want to change anything for us, make our life better? You don't have to tell them that Trump is worse, because in their reality he isn't, he is the same basically. Instead you should focus on trying to convince people to vote for Biden. Explain them how it does help them get a better life. If you don't do that, they will stay home and you're right, this will help Trump win again. But I don't blame them and you shouldn't either. Because it is up to Biden and his campaign and his supporters to make a convincing argument why the progressives, the poor, the working class should vote for Biden. Avoid Trump will not cut it as argument. That may be enough for the middle class, white collar jobs to convince them, because it may have actual impact. But for the poor it doesn't. So if your only argument is to prevent Trump, you already have lost the election.

Who are you to say there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans? You've been parroting this shit over and over, but it's easy to make those claims from the other side of the world while being completely sheltered and ignorant from the ground reality.

Just Monday, the state of Wisconsin had to suffer its most dangerous and undemocratic election in history because a couple courts had Republicans instead of Dems in them. Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it makes a difference.



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Moren said:
Mnementh said:

Well, it is one thing, that the election system is bad and needs reform. But the more important thing is, what people want and why they vote. Yes, you can try to scare people into voting, but guess what, that game both Trump and Clinton played last time by declaring voting for the other would bring about hell. Trump is also not the first worst president ever, I remember W., and his father and Reagan. But the thing is, that a democratic president didn't make things better for many people. Many people out there are disillusioned.

You have to ask yourself, why does for instance Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez puts this line in her ad for the primaries: "But after 20 years of same representation, we have to ask: who has New York been changing for?" and wins the primary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq3QXIVR0bs&t=37

The reality for so many people is, if it is democrats or republicans are governing, the differences are negligable, and these people ask: why should we vote for anothe rguy who doesn't want to change anything for us, make our life better? You don't have to tell them that Trump is worse, because in their reality he isn't, he is the same basically. Instead you should focus on trying to convince people to vote for Biden. Explain them how it does help them get a better life. If you don't do that, they will stay home and you're right, this will help Trump win again. But I don't blame them and you shouldn't either. Because it is up to Biden and his campaign and his supporters to make a convincing argument why the progressives, the poor, the working class should vote for Biden. Avoid Trump will not cut it as argument. That may be enough for the middle class, white collar jobs to convince them, because it may have actual impact. But for the poor it doesn't. So if your only argument is to prevent Trump, you already have lost the election.

Who are you to say there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans? You've been parroting this shit over and over, but it's easy to make those claims from the other side of the world while being completely sheltered and ignorant from the ground reality.

Just Monday, the state of Wisconsin had to suffer its most dangerous and undemocratic election in history because a couple courts had Republicans instead of Dems in them. Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it makes a difference.

Nice way to spin my words. I didn't say that there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. I said for many people it makes no impact on their life.

And your guy won. You should at this moment try and court the supporters of the other camp to vote for your guy in the general. But you actively try to repel progressives from voting. This way Biden will not win. You can do better.

Interestingly enough you currently sound a lot like Uran. As uran you have a preconceived notion about the other side and aren't even trying to win them over, only to antagonize them. uran didn't help Bernies case, you will not help Biden this way.

Last edited by Mnementh - on 14 April 2020

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Mnementh said:
Moren said:

Who are you to say there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans? You've been parroting this shit over and over, but it's easy to make those claims from the other side of the world while being completely sheltered and ignorant from the ground reality.

Just Monday, the state of Wisconsin had to suffer its most dangerous and undemocratic election in history because a couple courts had Republicans instead of Dems in them. Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it makes a difference.

Nice way to spin my words. I didn't say that there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. I said for many people it makes no impact on their life.

And you're guy won. You should at this moment try and court the supporters of the other camp to vote for your guy in the general. But you actively try to repel progressives from voting. This way Biden will not win. You can do better.

Interstingly enough you currently sound a lot like Uran. As uran you have a preconceived notion about the other side and aren't even trying to win them over, only to antagonize them. uran didn't help Bernies case, you will not help Biden this way.

At this point, I have no interest in convincing you of anything, it's not worth my time, as you've come from a place of bad faith from the get-go. You can rest easy knowing I conduct myself differently outside this thread.

Out of all the deplorable actions anyone can take, discouraging voting for a place they don't live in is probably the worst I've seen in this thread. Despicable.

And I'll add - I believe the overwhelming, overwhelming majority of Bernie voters are good people - I don't have any preconceived notions about the average voter that just wanted a more left-wing candidate. I also don't believe the internet and the VGC forums are good samples of the average Bernie voter.

Last edited by Moren - on 10 April 2020

Moren said:

Out of all the deplorable actions anyone can take, discouraging voting for a place they don't live in is probably the worst I've seen in this thread. Despicable.

I don't discourage anyone - I am saying it is up to each voter to make a decision. And I speak out against guilt-shaming someone into voting. This may works once or twice, but on the long run you will lose these people completely.

I am against guilt-shaming, because it is the same all over the world. All over the world people will tell progressive to let go of their dreams and vote 'rationally' or it is their fault the bad guy wins.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Not voting is a vote

The Establishment expect us to choose the lesser of two evils, they are banking on it, they always bank on it

A clear message has to be sent if we want real change, a clear message that the people see through the broken system, Democracy in the US is NOT working for the PEOPLE


At some point they have to EARN your vote not just expect it by default or the establishment will NEVER change 

Last edited by Rab - on 11 April 2020

Democratic Party's war on Bernie Sanders may have sealed their fate against President Trump in November