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Forums - Politics Discussion - Adult Get Vaccinated and It's International News

Darwinianevolution said:
The entirety of the anti-vaccination movement is utterly bizarre. What possible reason would you have to willingly refuse something that has improved so much of Mankind's health throughout history and has millions of safe users every year? Both Smallpox and Rinderpest (a cattle disease) have been erradicated through vaccines, and a bunch of other diseases are in their way out because of them.

In this special case, the belief that vaccinations can cause Autism. The restmostly comes from the red scare in the 50s, where vaccines were told to be poison and a ploy from the USSR to get the US into socialized medicine. No joke

Just check the Polio serum part and judge for yourself



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NightlyPoe said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

I think you missed the point of this news. 

The point is not the boy, or even his parents, but Andrew Wakefield, the British guy who amassed followers in his teaching that vaccines would cause autism and who is at the base of the measles outbreak in the US. It's point is that (mostly) ultraconservatives are following his teachings and are now reaping the foul fruits in form of outbreaks from diseases which are thought mostly eradicated in the developed countries.

Basically, it's trying to say "don't listen to this guy, it's safe to get vaccinated and you should do it if you haven't yet".

Actually, you're confirming that I was exactly right.  The press has a point of view and are pretending a non-story is a story in order to push it.

Instead of writing another story about how Wakefield is discredited, they try to turn this guy into a figurehead in order to make it a social movement of their own.  As a journalistic practice, is bankrupt and is so flimsy it would be an embarrassment to put in the opinion section.

Well, to be fair, I didn't hear about him or the measles outbreak before this thread, so for me it was big news



NightlyPoe said:

...It's completely manufactured, but the goal isn't to inform their readers/viewers, it's to advocate for one side of an issue via manufactured personalization.  They can run articles from scientists all day to try and persuade, but it's easier to elevate this guy and pretend a non-story is a story in order to put a face on it.  This is just one of the ridiculous and transparent attempts at it.

It's something to keep in mind while consuming news and their little bag of tricks in how to manipulate the public.

Emphasis mine.

In this case, it's to (not so) subtly point out the insanity of one "side" of the argument. By personalizing a single story, they point out that you too, kid who has certifiably insane parents, can right the wrongs they have done to you when you come of age.

News has always been subjective. To some people, this is more important than what Trump did today or what Brexit happenings are going down. Some people prefer to read about celebrities. To each their own.

However, as another poster pointed out, if your goal is to criticize the story by bringing attention to how much of a non-story it is, then congrats, you just made it a story. By getting the eyeballs of potentially hundreds more readers, you've just spread the story more effectively than the news outlet(s) could on their own.

Finally, a question. What is manufactured personalization? This is an anecdote of one human being. The news outlets didn't manufacture it - this really happened. They spread the story, but unless you're suggesting they put the idea in the kid's head and incentivized him to do it, that's just called reporting. 



 

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Man... that´s just... pretty pretty dumb journalism

Journalism, I mean, true, technical, *useful* journalism seems to be a fading thing. No wonder my two friends who are journalists (and VERY competent, qualified ones) are having such a hard time finding a job.

That said... I don´t understand why some people still think that adults getting vaccines is a big issue. We must took vaccines during pratically our entire life.



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NightlyPoe said:
Flilix said:

The line between tabloids and serious newspapers isn't always clear, as tabloids also do more serious stuff occassionally and the serious papers also do stuff like this sometimes.

Nonetheless, the reasoning is the same: every news source wants as many clicks/reads as possible, so all of them write about things people want to read (in varying degrees, of course). Sensationalism and clickbait will never not be effective.

Maybe I'm misreading the public, but I seriously don't think there was an appetite out there for an adult ignoring his parent's wishes about a minor medical decision.

Well there it is.  You don't get it.  What is news to one may not be to others.  For you, this is irrelevant.  For others, it's a story of taking control against a growing conspiracy that is potentially life threatening for millions of people.

It's also one of many similar stories whereby children (and adults still living with their parents) are looking for way to get vaccinated against their parents directives.
https://www.parents.com/news/teens-are-asking-online-how-to-get-vaccinated-without-their-parents-consent/
https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/children-are-asking-the-internet-how-to-get-vaccinated-without-their-parents-consent/

You're looking at one article in isolation without recognizing it is part of a larger story.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

I completely missed this. So the media has a pro-vaccination bias which is about as bad of a narrative as trying to motivate people to exercise and get their bodies in shape.

Why was this even a thread? NightlyPoe, are you against vaccination?



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cdude1034 said:
NightlyPoe said:

...It's completely manufactured, but the goal isn't to inform their readers/viewers, it's to advocate for one side of an issue via manufactured personalization.  They can run articles from scientists all day to try and persuade, but it's easier to elevate this guy and pretend a non-story is a story in order to put a face on it.  This is just one of the ridiculous and transparent attempts at it.

It's something to keep in mind while consuming news and their little bag of tricks in how to manipulate the public.

Emphasis mine.

In this case, it's to (not so) subtly point out the insanity of one "side" of the argument. By personalizing a single story, they point out that you too, kid who has certifiably insane parents, can right the wrongs they have done to you when you come of age.

News has always been subjective. To some people, this is more important than what Trump did today or what Brexit happenings are going down. Some people prefer to read about celebrities. To each their own.

However, as another poster pointed out, if your goal is to criticize the story by bringing attention to how much of a non-story it is, then congrats, you just made it a story. By getting the eyeballs of potentially hundreds more readers, you've just spread the story more effectively than the news outlet(s) could on their own.

Finally, a question. What is manufactured personalization? This is an anecdote of one human being. The news outlets didn't manufacture it - this really happened. They spread the story, but unless you're suggesting they put the idea in the kid's head and incentivized him to do it, that's just called reporting. 

 

SpokenTruth said:
NightlyPoe said:

Maybe I'm misreading the public, but I seriously don't think there was an appetite out there for an adult ignoring his parent's wishes about a minor medical decision.

Well there it is.  You don't get it.  What is news to one may not be to others.  For you, this is irrelevant.  For others, it's a story of taking control against a growing conspiracy that is potentially life threatening for millions of people.

It's also one of many similar stories whereby children (and adults still living with their parents) are looking for way to get vaccinated against their parents directives.
https://www.parents.com/news/teens-are-asking-online-how-to-get-vaccinated-without-their-parents-consent/
https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/children-are-asking-the-internet-how-to-get-vaccinated-without-their-parents-consent/

You're looking at one article in isolation without recognizing it is part of a larger story.

Was going to say something similar to cdude1034 and SpokenTruth, so I'll just quote them and add to it.

There is a multifaceted problem with how information is consumed today. It's not just a problem with false information, or people's inability to fact check important stories.
Why did anti-vaxing even become a thing? Do you think these people mainly read through pages upon pages of scientific 'research'?
Or was it because of how the story became personally relatable with the 'autism' thing?

I'm betting it's the later.
We live in a world where many people primarily only read headlines, and chanting three worded sentences can be more efficient than actually discussing details.

Build The Wall
Lock Her Up
Yes We Can

So to reach certain people the answer may not be to publish tens of thousands of peer reviewed studies from research (see global warming), but rather to sensationalize a story, like this. And hopefully that incentivizes them to read up on the details, like that one person in this thread. But unfortunately, I'm sure many will not.

Is it ok just because it's true, or just because it aligns with what I think?
It's not like media aren't manipulative even when they publish traditional stories.

And to touch a bit on what was said in the quotes above, I think it's important that a story like this gets the spotlight to highlight just what a ridiculous situation we are in.
In the 80's people expected us to have flying cars in 2019. Instead, we have teenagers defying their parents, and sneaking out to get vaccinations.
That he is legally able isn't really the point. It's ridiculous that he even had to do it in the first place. And that he survived for 18 years when someone sneezing on him could have sent him to an early grave.

Last edited by Hiku - on 05 March 2019

NightlyPoe said:
Hiku said:

 

Was going to say something similar to cdude1034 and SpokenTruth, so I'll just quote them and add to it.

There is a multifaceted problem with how information is consumed today. It's not just a problem with false information, or people's inability to fact check important stories.
Why did anti-vaxing even become a thing? Do you think these people mainly read through pages upon pages of scientific 'research'?
Or was it because of how the story became personally relatable with the 'autism' thing?

I'm betting it's the later.
We live in a world where many people primarily only read headlines, and chanting three worded sentences can be more efficient than actually discussing details.

Build The Wall
Lock Her Up
Yes We Can

So to reach certain people the answer may not be to publish tens of thousands of peer reviewed studies from research (see global warming), but rather to sensationalize a story, like this. And hopefully that incentivizes them to read up on the details, like that one person in this thread. But unfortunately, I'm sure many will not.

Is it ok just because it's true, or just because it aligns with what I think?
It's not like media aren't manipulative even when they publish traditional stories.

And to touch a bit on what was said in the quotes above, I think it's important that a story like this gets the spotlight to highlight just what a ridiculous situation we are in.
In the 80's people expected us to have flying cars in 2019. Instead, we have teenagers defying their parents, and sneaking out to get vaccinations.
That he is legally able isn't really the point. It's ridiculous that he even had to do it in the first place. And that he survived for 18 years when someone sneezing on him could have sent him to an early grave.

The thing is that you guys are promoting manipulative journalism.  In this case, the goal is benign, but it's corrosive in the end.  It makes people trust news sources even less to have such bald non-stories that should have never seen ink in the first place become news for days on end.  And then Democracy dies in darkness or whatever.

Again, this guy simply did something as an adult that his mother disagreed with.  Every reporter that interviewed him or wrote about the non-story needs to find another occupation.  They're simply not in the news business.  They're in the advocacy business.  In this case the test is rather stark.  There is no news to be found here.

Must I repeat myself?  yes, I must.

"Well there it is. You don't get it. What is news to one may not be to others. For you, this is irrelevant. For others, it's a story of taking control against a growing conspiracy that is potentially life threatening for millions of people."

It's a non-story to you because you don't like or agree with it.  You even call the story benign which suggests you don't recognize the tragedies already befalling us from the anti-vaccination movement.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

Hiku said:
cdude1034 said:

Emphasis mine.

In this case, it's to (not so) subtly point out the insanity of one "side" of the argument. By personalizing a single story, they point out that you too, kid who has certifiably insane parents, can right the wrongs they have done to you when you come of age.

News has always been subjective. To some people, this is more important than what Trump did today or what Brexit happenings are going down. Some people prefer to read about celebrities. To each their own.

However, as another poster pointed out, if your goal is to criticize the story by bringing attention to how much of a non-story it is, then congrats, you just made it a story. By getting the eyeballs of potentially hundreds more readers, you've just spread the story more effectively than the news outlet(s) could on their own.

Finally, a question. What is manufactured personalization? This is an anecdote of one human being. The news outlets didn't manufacture it - this really happened. They spread the story, but unless you're suggesting they put the idea in the kid's head and incentivized him to do it, that's just called reporting. 

 

SpokenTruth said:

Well there it is.  You don't get it.  What is news to one may not be to others.  For you, this is irrelevant.  For others, it's a story of taking control against a growing conspiracy that is potentially life threatening for millions of people.

It's also one of many similar stories whereby children (and adults still living with their parents) are looking for way to get vaccinated against their parents directives.
https://www.parents.com/news/teens-are-asking-online-how-to-get-vaccinated-without-their-parents-consent/
https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/children-are-asking-the-internet-how-to-get-vaccinated-without-their-parents-consent/

You're looking at one article in isolation without recognizing it is part of a larger story.

Was going to say something similar to cdude1034 and SpokenTruth, so I'll just quote them and add to it.

There is a multifaceted problem with how information is consumed today. It's not just a problem with false information, or people's inability to fact check important stories.
Why did anti-vaxing even become a thing? Do you think these people mainly read through pages upon pages of scientific 'research'?
Or was it because of how the story became personally relatable with the 'autism' thing?

I'm betting it's the later.
We live in a world where many people primarily only read headlines, and chanting three worded sentences can be more efficient than actually discussing details.

Build The Wall
Lock Her Up
Yes We Can

So to reach certain people the answer may not be to publish tens of thousands of peer reviewed studies from research (see global warming), but rather to sensationalize a story, like this. And hopefully that incentivizes them to read up on the details, like that one person in this thread. But unfortunately, I'm sure many will not.

Is it ok just because it's true, or just because it aligns with what I think?
It's not like media aren't manipulative even when they publish traditional stories.

And to touch a bit on what was said in the quotes above, I think it's important that a story like this gets the spotlight to highlight just what a ridiculous situation we are in.
In the 80's people expected us to have flying cars in 2019. Instead, we have teenagers defying their parents, and sneaking out to get vaccinations.
That he is legally able isn't really the point. It's ridiculous that he even had to do it in the first place. And that he survived for 18 years when someone sneezing on him could have sent him to an early grave.

@bolded: Probably with the Red Scare and McCarthyism. At the time vaccines were considered a Soviet ploy to socialize medicine and that the profession had been infiltrated massively by Russian doctors. Considering how widespread and engraved the red scare got, I think it all really started there. Add to this some religious beliefs (like the fact that Jehova's witnesses don't allow for blood donations as it makes them "unpure") and some puritan traditions, and you get a perfect storm for anti-vaxxers to even be a thing. The link between vaccines and Autism came only 2 decades later, but is now the driving force against it.

The problem with the news is partly that they need money, so they are incentivised to make their articles as eye-catchy and sensational as possible, especially on their internet presence, hence the clickbait headlines full of half-truths. It also works against them as many people assume the rest of the article just from the headline, so you can say it went horribly right for them, as they get more clicks and thus sponsor money, but undermines their entire profession. Media would need an independent and reliable source of income to avoid these pitfalls, but good luck finding something like that.I really wish people wouldn't just assume the rest from the headlines, but quite a few do, and there ain't much you can do against it.

Another problem is that many who are against these things are actually not dumb or not interested in the matter, quite the opposite in fact as a study found out (would need to dig deep to find that one again). They just are very selective about the information. If there are 100 articles proving climate change for instance and one railing against it, they dismiss the 100 articles before and truly believe the one against it as proof that it's all a hoax. How do you want to fight against that unless the climate changes hits them right into their faces? Unless there would be no misinformation about such things anymore on the internet, which is impossible, they will not change their mind unless somebody else points out the dots and plotholes in the threads they are following.