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Forums - Politics Discussion - Adult Get Vaccinated and It's International News

NightlyPoe said:
Hiku said:

 

Was going to say something similar to cdude1034 and SpokenTruth, so I'll just quote them and add to it.

There is a multifaceted problem with how information is consumed today. It's not just a problem with false information, or people's inability to fact check important stories.
Why did anti-vaxing even become a thing? Do you think these people mainly read through pages upon pages of scientific 'research'?
Or was it because of how the story became personally relatable with the 'autism' thing?

I'm betting it's the later.
We live in a world where many people primarily only read headlines, and chanting three worded sentences can be more efficient than actually discussing details.

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So to reach certain people the answer may not be to publish tens of thousands of peer reviewed studies from research (see global warming), but rather to sensationalize a story, like this. And hopefully that incentivizes them to read up on the details, like that one person in this thread. But unfortunately, I'm sure many will not.

Is it ok just because it's true, or just because it aligns with what I think?
It's not like media aren't manipulative even when they publish traditional stories.

And to touch a bit on what was said in the quotes above, I think it's important that a story like this gets the spotlight to highlight just what a ridiculous situation we are in.
In the 80's people expected us to have flying cars in 2019. Instead, we have teenagers defying their parents, and sneaking out to get vaccinations.
That he is legally able isn't really the point. It's ridiculous that he even had to do it in the first place. And that he survived for 18 years when someone sneezing on him could have sent him to an early grave.

The thing is that you guys are promoting manipulative journalism.  In this case, the goal is benign, but it's corrosive in the end.  It makes people trust news sources even less to have such bald non-stories that should have never seen ink in the first place become news for days on end.  And then Democracy dies in darkness or whatever.

Again, this guy simply did something as an adult that his mother disagreed with.  Every reporter that interviewed him or wrote about the non-story needs to find another occupation.  They're simply not in the news business.  They're in the advocacy business.  In this case the test is rather stark.  There is no news to be found here.

I think there's quite a lot of manipulative journalism in many different ways, including how headlines are presented.
They have an intended target audience, and some people just won't learn about certain situations if it weren't for specific stories or headlines that catch their interest.
If they publish a story about a housefire involving pets, could they also be hoping that the readers become more cautious with fire safety as a result? And that it may attract animal lovers due to the headline? Sure.

Though like I said, the fact that what this kid did was legal doesn't take away from the fact that it's remarkable that he had to live for 18 years like that. A lot of people don't know that these things are happening, let alone that it has been going on for that long. And they should know.

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Hiku said:

 

Was going to say something similar to cdude1034 and SpokenTruth, so I'll just quote them and add to it.

There is a multifaceted problem with how information is consumed today. It's not just a problem with false information, or people's inability to fact check important stories.
Why did anti-vaxing even become a thing? Do you think these people mainly read through pages upon pages of scientific 'research'?
Or was it because of how the story became personally relatable with the 'autism' thing?

I'm betting it's the later.
We live in a world where many people primarily only read headlines, and chanting three worded sentences can be more efficient than actually discussing details.

Build The Wall
Lock Her Up
Yes We Can

So to reach certain people the answer may not be to publish tens of thousands of peer reviewed studies from research (see global warming), but rather to sensationalize a story, like this. And hopefully that incentivizes them to read up on the details, like that one person in this thread. But unfortunately, I'm sure many will not.

Is it ok just because it's true, or just because it aligns with what I think?
It's not like media aren't manipulative even when they publish traditional stories.

And to touch a bit on what was said in the quotes above, I think it's important that a story like this gets the spotlight to highlight just what a ridiculous situation we are in.
In the 80's people expected us to have flying cars in 2019. Instead, we have teenagers defying their parents, and sneaking out to get vaccinations.
That he is legally able isn't really the point. It's ridiculous that he even had to do it in the first place. And that he survived for 18 years when someone sneezing on him could have sent him to an early grave.

@bolded: Probably with the Red Scare and McCarthyism. At the time vaccines were considered a Soviet ploy to socialize medicine and that the profession had been infiltrated massively by Russian doctors. Considering how widespread and engraved the red scare got, I think it all really started there. Add to this some religious beliefs (like the fact that Jehova's witnesses don't allow for blood donations as it makes them "unpure") and some puritan traditions, and you get a perfect storm for anti-vaxxers to even be a thing. The link between vaccines and Autism came only 2 decades later, but is now the driving force against it.

The problem with the news is partly that they need money, so they are incentivised to make their articles as eye-catchy and sensational as possible, especially on their internet presence, hence the clickbait headlines full of half-truths. It also works against them as many people assume the rest of the article just from the headline, so you can say it went horribly right for them, as they get more clicks and thus sponsor money, but undermines their entire profession. Media would need an independent and reliable source of income to avoid these pitfalls, but good luck finding something like that.I really wish people wouldn't just assume the rest from the headlines, but quite a few do, and there ain't much you can do against it.

Another problem is that many who are against these things are actually not dumb or not interested in the matter, quite the opposite in fact as a study found out (would need to dig deep to find that one again). They just are very selective about the information. If there are 100 articles proving climate change for instance and one railing against it, they dismiss the 100 articles before and truly believe the one against it as proof that it's all a hoax. How do you want to fight against that unless the climate changes hits them right into their faces? Unless there would be no misinformation about such things anymore on the internet, which is impossible, they will not change their mind unless somebody else points out the dots and plotholes in the threads they are following.

I was more referring to how the movement resurged in recent times. I would wager many of them are more familiar with Jenny McCarthy's anti-vaxing advocacy on Oprah than McCartyism.
(I was going to post a link to a clip of hers, but I'm not even going to do that on the off chance that someone looking at it gets the wrong idea.)

Diseases that were declared extinct in the early 90's are now back, and it seems like this movement is a, if not the, major culprit.

Yeah, news media (generally, there are some exceptions) primarily focus on making money. Fighting for the truth is secondary, and tends to come down to an individual level from journalist to journalist.

Regarding your third paragraph, unfortunately I know someone like that. In a recent situation, they found a headline from an article they couldn't even read because it was behind a paywall, featuring one of those 1 vs 100000 kind of ideas. I did some research on it, and turns out the opinion featured in it comes from someone who has been highly criticized by his peers after multiple instances where his assessments were found to have errors in them, and he apparently never bothered to explain or defend his conclusions when asked. But that headline was enough for that person to consider their view enforced.

Last edited by Hiku - on 06 March 2019

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NightlyPoe said:
And now being an adult who needs to ask Reddit how to make a doctor's appointment qualifies him to testify to Congress.

Yeah, we're doomed.

I think you're missing the point, which is the growing problem of people not getting vaccinated and the outbreaks. Maybe the media is gladly encouraging people to go get vaccinated.

Anyhow, its a 24 hours new cycle. I'd consider this news compared to a lot of other bullshit stories, like fake hate crimes.



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NightlyPoe said:
RolStoppable said:
I completely missed this. So the media has a pro-vaccination bias which is about as bad of a narrative as trying to motivate people to exercise and get their bodies in shape.

Why was this even a thread? NightlyPoe, are you against vaccination?

Please read the first post.

 

NightlyPoe said:

The thing is that you guys are promoting manipulative journalism.  In this case, the goal is benign, but it's corrosive in the end.  It makes people trust news sources even less to have such bald non-stories that should have never seen ink in the first place become news for days on end.  And then Democracy dies in darkness or whatever.

Again, this guy simply did something as an adult that his mother disagreed with.  Every reporter that interviewed him or wrote about the non-story needs to find another occupation.  They're simply not in the news business.  They're in the advocacy business.  In this case the test is rather stark.  There is no news to be found here.

Manipulative journalism is the only thing that can work on people who have been manipulated. Scientific evidence is not going to convince those people that vaccination is a good thing, because otherwise they wouldn't be against vaccination in the first place.

Books and movies have lots of stories that deal with the moral dilemma of a protagonist having to bend or break rules as it is the only way to achieve a positive result (such as a detective using illegally obtained evidence to nail down a criminal). Being okay with people being manipulated into acceptance that vaccination is a good thing doesn't mean that one would be okay with manipulative journalism in all possible instances.



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Just force parents to vaccinate their kids unless they are allergic to it, simple as that. Don’t understand why we have religious clauses here in Canada and the US that can allow this to happen. I understand people have the right to express themselves, but yeah, this should be a big no no. When your risking the health of humanity as a whole, fuck that.



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NightlyPoe said:
SpokenTruth said:

Must I repeat myself?  yes, I must.

"Well there it is. You don't get it. What is news to one may not be to others. For you, this is irrelevant. For others, it's a story of taking control against a growing conspiracy that is potentially life threatening for millions of people."

It's a non-story to you because you don't like or agree with it.  You even call the story benign which suggests you don't recognize the tragedies already befalling us from the anti-vaccination movement.

It's not news to anyone that an adult can make their own medical decisions.  You want to spin it out into a greater story (in short, build a narrative), but you're rather proving my point.  It's not about the non-story, it's about how it can be spun into something more than it is.  It's simple advocacy.

Furthermore, I partially chose this story to highlight because I agreed with the premise.  I called the goal benign (which, for some reason, you seem to have taken for the opposite of the word's meaning) and stated my position clearly in the topic post.  I could have used other more politically charged examples, but this was a safe one where the misbehavior of the reporters is evident even if their intentions are non-controversial.

I believe it's your eyes that are being shaded to the harm being done by such practices being common because you agree with the intention.

You sound like a moron repeating the same thing over an over again.

This IS a story.

Going by your reasoning, Rosa Parks not standing up on the bus was not a story. I mean it was just an adult woman chosing to not stand up. What's so special about that. I choose not to stand up hundreds of times a day.



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This news is just another perfect example of the failure of antivaxers, so the media just ran it.

And that's good, because people need to be vaccinated and need to understand that they need to be vaccinated. Period.



NightlyPoe said:

You're seriously comparing a grown man not listening to his mommy to a woman breaking the law in defiance of segregation in 1950s Alabama resulting in arrest, the loss of her job, and years of death threats?

No it is not a story.  Repeating that a banal action of no consequence, controversy, or impediment is a story over and over again will not make it so.

And you're still ignoring that this is one of many stories about this issue.  You are isolating a leaf and ignoring the forest.  Yes, he's an adult and make personal medical decisions. But it's a medical decision that many actual teens are taking.  I gave you links before and you ignored them.  Stop looking at just the damn leaf.



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NightlyPoe said:
SpokenTruth said:

You are isolating a leaf and ignoring the forest.

Correct.  I'm highlighting an example of journalistic malpractice.  I'm not highlighting a forest or litigating vaccination like many (most actually) are doing here.

Your examples were about minors.  That is an ongoing issue.  Having a 16-year-old advocate speaking out about not being able to get vaccinated would be a story.  An adult, however, is not.  I'm not sure what the difficulty is in all this.  One is a crashing of parental rights and underage youths control of their own bodies and health.

The other is just an adult going to the doctor.

Leaf, you're still staring it. It's highlighting a simple fact...children are disobeying their parents decisions regarding vaccinations.  And before you get all semantic on me, child also refers offspring regardless of age.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

NightlyPoe said:
SpokenTruth said:

Leaf, you're still staring it. It's highlighting a simple fact...children are disobeying their parents decisions regarding vaccinations.  And before you get all semantic on me, child also refers offspring regardless of age.

Yes, I'm staring at the leaf.  The topic is about the leaf.  You want to talk about the forest and I'm directing you back to the leaf.

An adult ignoring their parent's advise is only remarkable in how unremarkable it is.  You want it to be more, but in the end, it's just an adult making his own decision.  You wish to mix it up with the underage version of the story, but the two are separated by the assumption of complete legal authority over himself that happened on the day he turned 18.  I'm not sure why you insist on putting the two together and insisting so hard that there is any legitimacy for why this person should for the second time in a month, be all over my news feed for days on end.

You're the one trying to separate the two as thought they are somehow unrelated.  But keep looking at that leaf.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

irstupid said:

Going by your reasoning, Rosa Parks not standing up on the bus was not a story. I mean it was just an adult woman chosing to not stand up. What's so special about that. I choose not to stand up hundreds of times a day.

 

NightlyPoe said:
SpokenTruth said:

Leaf, you're still staring it. It's highlighting a simple fact...children are disobeying their parents decisions regarding vaccinations.  And before you get all semantic on me, child also refers offspring regardless of age.

Yes, I'm staring at the leaf.  The topic is about the leaf.  You want to talk about the forest and I'm directing you back to the leaf.

An adult ignoring their parent's advise is only remarkable in how unremarkable it is.  You want it to be more, but in the end, it's just an adult making his own decision.  You wish to mix it up with the underage version of the story, but the two are separated by the assumption of complete legal authority over himself that happened on the day he turned 18.  I'm not sure why you insist on putting the two together and insisting so hard that there is any legitimacy for why this person should for the second time in a month, be all over my news feed for days on end.

A woman not standing up in the bus is even less remarkable. And yes, I know exactly what followed after that. But still, that incident itself wouldn't be noteworthy by your standards.

Hence why SpokenTruth tells you you're missing the big picture. He's one case in an entire movement to get vaccinated despite their anti-vaxxer's background. But you try to make it a non-issue and saying there's nothing remarkable about it. Getting vaccinated is indeed not remarkable, doing so while your parents and relatives have called it the devil's work (or something across those lines) and just being one out of many with a similar background however is noteworthy. But all you see is that single case and nothing else. It's as if you would concentrate on a single dead soldier and trying to argue that there's no war happening despite hundreds dying every day on the field.