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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Can MS & Sony just simply make next gen fully BC?

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I think you're comparing the PC emulators, which isn't a fair comparison because that isn't equal optimization. I'm simply pointing out you still need a powerful CPU to make PS3 emulator run well on a PC. Hence, I'm reluctant to believe PS4's CPU can emulate the PS3 well.

Not sure you are understanding anything... So I will try another method.

Why do you think the PS4 is unable to emulate the PS3 well?

Mr Puggsly said:

Xbox 360 BC started rough, improved significantly, but still has limitations likely due to the hardware. Not every game is a locked 30 or 60 fps. Halo: Reach was a fairly early BC release and the biggest issue was frame pacing. It really feels like BC performance has hit a wall and I don't believe Crysis is gonna see much improvement in performance.

If they decreased accuracy they can increase performance.
A SNES Emulator with 100% accuracy can bring down even the fastest CPU's today.

I think you need to take look at how Microsoft is actually achieving backwards compatibility though. - It's not pure emulation.

Well Sony hasn't attempted to make a PS3 emulator, but I'm not arguing its impossible to make that happen on PS4. The consensus has been the PS4 CPU just doesn't have the power needed. The PS3 emulator on PC requires a powerful CPU to operate at full speed but that's just an example that exist right now.

I watched the DF video discussing how Xbox 360 BC works and he says the hardware is handling some functions outside of emulation. Maybe going that route helps with some of the overhead of emulation but the X1 hardware itself is still doing heavy lifting on emulation and why X1X gets better results.

Essentially, getting 7th gen content to emulate at full speed may be a struggle with 8th gen specs. 9th gen specs on the other hand should have more than enough power to emulate 360 or PS3 easily. While 8th gen content we assume will be handled natively.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Well Sony hasn't attempted to make a PS3 emulator, but I'm not arguing its impossible to make that happen on PS4. The consensus has been the PS4 CPU just doesn't have the power needed. The PS3 emulator on PC requires a powerful CPU to operate at full speed but that's just an example that exist right now.

If it's a question of power... Remember that Microsoft isn't actually doing pure emulation in it's backwards compatibility efforts.
So the Emulation overhead isn't even a factor. - They aren't doing Emulation-PC-Style, consoles certainly do not have the horsepower for that.

And I will quote you on the last bit... Because now you are just contradicting your own statements:

Mr Puggsly said:

I think you're comparing the PC emulators, which isn't a fair comparison because that isn't equal optimization.

*******************

Mr Puggsly said:



I watched the DF video discussing how Xbox 360 BC works and he says the hardware is handling some functions outside of emulation. Maybe going that route helps with some of the overhead of emulation but the X1 hardware itself is still doing heavy lifting on emulation and why X1X gets better results.

Correct. Microsoft has baked in some hardware support for the Xbox 360 (Mostly just texture format stuffs) into the Xbox One's SoC which can lend a hand to backwards compatibility, but it's not entirely necessary.

But what Microsoft is doing is... Leveraging their Multi-OS approach by using virtualization so that they can run the Xbox 360/Original Xbox's Operating Systems alongside the Xbox One's Operating Systems. - That cuts a massive chunk of the Emulation overhead.

Microsoft is then also abstracting as much as it can... And possibly even using a form of binary translation.

And we know that they are repackaging their games, hence the enforced download of all Backwards Compatible games... Which is in stark contrast to the XBox 360's Backwards compatibility scheme as you would only download a tiny profile that is only a couple megabytes on that console to plug into the Emulator.

Meaning the CPU is pretty irrelevant, the Jaguar CPU's are vastly superior to that of Cell and Xenon anyway... Especially once you start to leverage some of the newer instructions. - And like I eluded to prior, the more Multi-threaded a game is, the better it is to Emulate... As no longer does timing and keeping everything in sync is as important.

At the end of the day though... Before Microsoft launched their Xbox One backwards compatibility scheme, I often argued it was entirely possible to emulate the Xbox 360 on the Xbox One... They just couldn't take a brute force approach... And it turned out I was correct. - And I argue the same reasoning for the Playstation 3.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well Sony hasn't attempted to make a PS3 emulator, but I'm not arguing its impossible to make that happen on PS4. The consensus has been the PS4 CPU just doesn't have the power needed. The PS3 emulator on PC requires a powerful CPU to operate at full speed but that's just an example that exist right now.

If it's a question of power... Remember that Microsoft isn't actually doing pure emulation in it's backwards compatibility efforts.
So the Emulation overhead isn't even a factor. - They aren't doing Emulation-PC-Style, consoles certainly do not have the horsepower for that.

And I will quote you on the last bit... Because now you are just contradicting your own statements:

Mr Puggsly said:

I think you're comparing the PC emulators, which isn't a fair comparison because that isn't equal optimization.

*******************

Mr Puggsly said:



I watched the DF video discussing how Xbox 360 BC works and he says the hardware is handling some functions outside of emulation. Maybe going that route helps with some of the overhead of emulation but the X1 hardware itself is still doing heavy lifting on emulation and why X1X gets better results.

Correct. Microsoft has baked in some hardware support for the Xbox 360 (Mostly just texture format stuffs) into the Xbox One's SoC which can lend a hand to backwards compatibility, but it's not entirely necessary.

But what Microsoft is doing is... Leveraging their Multi-OS approach by using virtualization so that they can run the Xbox 360/Original Xbox's Operating Systems alongside the Xbox One's Operating Systems. - That cuts a massive chunk of the Emulation overhead.

Microsoft is then also abstracting as much as it can... And possibly even using a form of binary translation.

And we know that they are repackaging their games, hence the enforced download of all Backwards Compatible games... Which is in stark contrast to the XBox 360's Backwards compatibility scheme as you would only download a tiny profile that is only a couple megabytes on that console to plug into the Emulator.

Meaning the CPU is pretty irrelevant, the Jaguar CPU's are vastly superior to that of Cell and Xenon anyway... Especially once you start to leverage some of the newer instructions. - And like I eluded to prior, the more Multi-threaded a game is, the better it is to Emulate... As no longer does timing and keeping everything in sync is as important.

At the end of the day though... Before Microsoft launched their Xbox One backwards compatibility scheme, I often argued it was entirely possible to emulate the Xbox 360 on the Xbox One... They just couldn't take a brute force approach... And it turned out I was correct. - And I argue the same reasoning for the Playstation 3.

Well DF didn't exactly clarify how much of the burden is being handled by hardware. It was sound, some graphical aspects, etc. Its possible the X1 could run 360 games entirely through emulation, but they found other ways use to use hardware it seems. And again, its still the CPU and GPU doing the heavy lifting for X1's BC.

I was referring to you talking about the emulators on PC for 360 and PS3. The optimization isn't great on either but even with further optimization they will always require higher end CPUs for a locked 30 or 60 fps, depending on the game. By today's standards at least.

Well it seems we're on the same page really, for the most part. Its hard to say what a brute force approach on X1 BC would look like as they opted to do a few things to make that not entirely necessary. I can't help but wonder if those baked in features help with easier and more accurate emulation versus really lowered the overhead.

In the end I think we came to the same conclusion that the PS4 simply doesn't have the power to emulate PS3 properly, full speed, or whatever. Maybe if there were some baked in features that would help, but I still think emulating the Cell is more resource intensive than the 360 CPU. When you look at the PC emulators though, the PS3 emulator is much better optimized.

I'm hoping we see a notable PS3 emulator in the PS5. It would probably be handled like the PS2 emulator on PS4 though, you just buy games off the store. But if it can run those PS3 games with improved performance and 4K, that would still be great. That would allow Sony to put many PS3 games on a some sort of Game Pass clone.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Well DF didn't exactly clarify how much of the burden is being handled by hardware.

Not as much as you think. The baked "hardware" support mostly just stems to texture formats and audio format support.
But it also likely means that Microsoft was planning backwards compatibility whilst they were designing the Xbox One.

Mr Puggsly said:

Well it seems we're on the same page really, for the most part. Its hard to say what a brute force approach on X1 BC would look like as they opted to do a few things to make that not entirely necessary. I can't help but wonder if those baked in features help with easier and more accurate emulation versus really lowered the overhead.

Consoles can't do brute force... They don't have the hardware for that, next gen could brute force it though.

Mr Puggsly said:

In the end I think we came to the same conclusion that the PS4 simply doesn't have the power to emulate PS3 properly, full speed, or whatever. Maybe if there were some baked in features that would help, but I still think emulating the Cell is more resource intensive than the 360 CPU. When you look at the PC emulators though, the PS3 emulator is much better optimized.


The Playstation 4 is capable of backwards compatibility. It's not capable (Like the Xbox) of brute-force emulation alongside what the PC is doing.

However.

It is well known that the 8-Core Jaguars roughly fall in line in terms of performance to that of a dual-core Haswell CPU when the application can leverage all the threads of the Jaguar.

And considering that a such a Dual-Core CPU is capable of emulating the PS3... Well. You get the idea.


Add in the fact that Sony has more intimate knowledge regarding the Cell and low-level access to their consoles, it's more than feasible.
Remember... The Cell isn't a very fast CPU, the SPE'S actually translate well to the Jaguar Cores.

Will Sony do it though? Not likely. They aren't a software engineering powerhouse like Microsoft.

Mr Puggsly said:

I'm hoping we see a notable PS3 emulator in the PS5. It would probably be handled like the PS2 emulator on PS4 though, you just buy games off the store. But if it can run those PS3 games with improved performance and 4K, that would still be great. That would allow Sony to put many PS3 games on a some sort of Game Pass clone.

I don't think we will see Sony bother with Emulation, the Playstation 4 has affirmed that it really isn't necessary for good sales... So unless they can monetize it in someway, I doubt it will ever happen.

Happen to be proven wrong of course.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

If they want they can make a full BC console, at least physical media. The problem with the digital media BC is selling the older game on the new console without agreement from the IP holder. But sure enough they can get through it, the console is BC, but the sale being made on the new platform being defined on per game agreement or general agreement with publisher.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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konnichiwa said:
DakonBlackblade said:

Nobody realy cares for BC, its a nice topic of discussion on forums but it makes almost no actual difference on sales or on a console popularity. Average consumer doesn´t even know BC is a thing if the guy on the store don´t tell them. 

But it does:

 

It’s no suprise Call of Duty be among the U.S. top 10 best-selling titles of the month. The annual military shooter franchise is among the top-selling games of every year. But it is strange to see one of its older installments hit the charts. According to The NPD Group, 2009’s Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was the No. 8 best-selling game in the U.S. in August.

So, uh, why? Well, the Xbox 360 version of Modern Warfare 2 became backward compatible with the Xbox One on August 28. This drove sales of the shooter to an insane degree. In July, Modern Warfare 2 was only the No. 321 best-selling game. This growth shows that many people just want a way to play older games that doesn’t involve keeping an obsolete console around. And this doesn’t just apply to the old games they have laying around. They’re willing to go out and buy them (or stay in, if they’re using the newfangled internet contraption to make digital purchases).

And devs will love to sell the 5USD game instead of the 60 =p



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Of course. The tech will be the same.
PS4 Pro is working on BC already.



DonFerrari said:
konnichiwa said:

But it does:

 

It’s no suprise Call of Duty be among the U.S. top 10 best-selling titles of the month. The annual military shooter franchise is among the top-selling games of every year. But it is strange to see one of its older installments hit the charts. According to The NPD Group, 2009’s Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was the No. 8 best-selling game in the U.S. in August.

So, uh, why? Well, the Xbox 360 version of Modern Warfare 2 became backward compatible with the Xbox One on August 28. This drove sales of the shooter to an insane degree. In July, Modern Warfare 2 was only the No. 321 best-selling game. This growth shows that many people just want a way to play older games that doesn’t involve keeping an obsolete console around. And this doesn’t just apply to the old games they have laying around. They’re willing to go out and buy them (or stay in, if they’re using the newfangled internet contraption to make digital purchases).

And devs will love to sell the 5USD game instead of the 60 =p

Well it shows their is demand for it if anything.  MW2 used sales doesn't count so it is kind of impressive that a x360 game manages to make in the top 10 after the xone being 4- 5 yearish on the market






konnichiwa said:
DonFerrari said:

And devs will love to sell the 5USD game instead of the 60 =p

Well it shows their is demand for it if anything.  MW2 used sales doesn't count so it is kind of impressive that a x360 game manages to make in the top 10 after the xone being 4- 5 yearish on the market

Sure it's impressive but still it isnt sold at 60 USD.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Correct me if I am wrong but Emulation is how you can be BC and not require Developer permissions.

Basically if the PS5 can emulate a PS4 via Software or partially Hardware wise it will be a piece of cake. It is largely considered that PS5 upgrade will be linear from PS4, meaning it shouldn't be difficult to do. PS3 started out with full BC because it used actual PS2 hardware inside to emulate. The later models lost that part of the chip to cut costs....but the PS1 games are actually still software emulated on all PS3s.

MS method of emulation can largely be the same as it is on XB1. Could actually be surprised if the huge power increase allows for more direct 360 emulation seeing as it isn't the drastically different like the PS3 was to PS4.



      

      

      

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