JRPGfan said:

to be fair....  Theguardian is a british newspaper, that would like to go out of their ways to smear the EU.

One point is right in all this though:

"The northern European nations within the eurozone still do not trust the hard-pressed southern ones to spend money wisely and pay back their debts."

TheGuardian go out of their ways to smear the EU? The Guardian has more faith in the EU than the EU itself. I literally scroll through TheGuardian headlines to chuckle, sometimes though, they do manage to be objective.  

EDIT; I see you managed to find out that yourself given the guardian article you just linked



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LurkerJ said:
JRPGfan said:

to be fair....  Theguardian is a british newspaper, that would like to go out of their ways to smear the EU.

One point is right in all this though:

"The northern European nations within the eurozone still do not trust the hard-pressed southern ones to spend money wisely and pay back their debts."

TheGuardian go out of their ways to smear the EU? The Guardian has more faith in the EU than the EU itself. I literally scroll through TheGuardian headlines to chuckle, sometimes though, they do manage to be objective.  

EDIT; I see you managed to find out that yourself given the guardian article you just linked

Thats not Pro EU, thats just "holy cows are we screwed!" type of article.

Economy was going bad, even with favorable deals from EU, while in the EU.
Large amounts of their economy is based on financial trade systems, that wont work once their out and past their transition periode.

Coronavirus ontop, and their trade deals falling apart soon after (31st dec 2020).

The UK economy is f***ed.



EU is in a real crisis at the moment due to the circumstances

if there was a country that had better avoid a crisis, that was Italy, their debt was already on the limit (due to corruption) and now this

but what does a real union mean anyway? that the rich North have to pay for the debt of the poor-corrupted South? how will the South society improve if others pay their debts? a real union is a fair one too

I really hope the EU makes it through without more losses or it's a finished matter, the EU and the Economic Zone is a huge hope for Europeans in a world of titans, if we let it slip through our hands we are very stupid as a continent

I predict that the actual Brexit will take another year extension, not enough time for negotiations and a no deal would be bad for an already weak UK economy that cannot take any more after the virus and the damage already done by Brexit... funny and ironic but only the flag and the parliament members did an exit - for now

edit: US elections could mean that the US trade deal is not guaranteed to come fast enough if Biden wins, another reason for extension



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

EU is in a real crisis at the moment due to the circumstances

if there was a country that had better avoid a crisis, that was Italy, their debt was already on the limit (due to corruption) and now this

but what does a real union mean anyway? that the rich North have to pay for the debt of the poor-corrupted South? how will the South society improve if others pay their debts? a real union is a fair one too

I really hope the EU makes it through without more losses or it's a finished matter, the EU and the Economic Zone is a huge hope for Europeans in a world of titans, if we let it slip through our hands we are very stupid as a continent

I predict that the actual Brexit will take another year extension, not enough time for negotiations and a no deal would be bad for an already weak UK economy that cannot take any more after the virus and the damage already done by Brexit... funny and ironic but only the flag and the parliament members did an exit - for now

edit: US elections could mean that the US trade deal is not guaranteed to come fast enough if Biden wins, another reason for extension

Europe has already given the UK like ~4 years of time (the vote was in 2016).
I think if UK has to ask for another extention, there should be some demands from EUs side / consessions from the UK.

It isnt right for the UK to pull the EU around by the nose, and dictate when things happend.
If anything that fact that the UK is now in a even weaker position, means the EU should pressure the UK.



JRPGfan said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

EU is in a real crisis at the moment due to the circumstances

if there was a country that had better avoid a crisis, that was Italy, their debt was already on the limit (due to corruption) and now this

but what does a real union mean anyway? that the rich North have to pay for the debt of the poor-corrupted South? how will the South society improve if others pay their debts? a real union is a fair one too

I really hope the EU makes it through without more losses or it's a finished matter, the EU and the Economic Zone is a huge hope for Europeans in a world of titans, if we let it slip through our hands we are very stupid as a continent

I predict that the actual Brexit will take another year extension, not enough time for negotiations and a no deal would be bad for an already weak UK economy that cannot take any more after the virus and the damage already done by Brexit... funny and ironic but only the flag and the parliament members did an exit - for now

edit: US elections could mean that the US trade deal is not guaranteed to come fast enough if Biden wins, another reason for extension

Europe has already given the UK like ~4 years of time (the vote was in 2016).
I think if UK has to ask for another extention, there should be some demands from EUs side / consessions from the UK.

It isnt right for the UK to pull the EU around by the nose, and dictate when things happend.
If anything that fact that the UK is now in a even weaker position, means the EU should pressure the UK.

I get the impression that you think the UK has had easy/plenty of time granted by the EU, that is not the case.

The UK is the 3rd biggest net contributor to the EU, I believe the UK should have every right to have a favourable deal, yes preferably being useful to both the UK and EU. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-biggest-contributors-eu-budget/

"The UK also gives and receives much more money via trade with other EU countries, so transactions with the EU budget aren't the full story when it comes to the UK’s economic relationship with the rest of the EU."

Yes the UK had a vote in 2016. At that time it was Teresa May leader of the Conservative party who was pro remain with mostly pro remain party support and the opposing party (Labour) who was also pro remain trying to deliver a 'brexit' deal. In the media both the major parties (Conservative and Labour and other smaller parties) made big claims in the begining about honouring the vote to leave on live TV only to push a more pro remain deal which angered the population as a democratic vote was being actively subverted.

This eventually lead to a complete break down of parliment (and eventual replacement of the speaker) as the deal Teresa May made was basically capitulation to the EU as a colony and never actually leaving. 

Back when the UK joined the European Economic Community (EEC) it was based mainly upon economic interests to benefit both parties, however evolution has gone much beyond that, as in the European Courts having the power to override the courts of european countries themselves. People see this as power that has simply gone too far (an extra layer of bureaucracy that can not be overturned by a nation) and want out.

For the record I did vote leave and personally have no prejudice towards Europe and the people that live there, however I do believe the European Union has been seeking too much power in the last few years and now it appears to be close to falling apart.

Edit for spelling!

Last edited by Quartz - on 16 April 2020

Good to see this site is still going 

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Quartz said:
JRPGfan said:

Europe has already given the UK like ~4 years of time (the vote was in 2016).
I think if UK has to ask for another extention, there should be some demands from EUs side / consessions from the UK.

It isnt right for the UK to pull the EU around by the nose, and dictate when things happend.
If anything that fact that the UK is now in a even weaker position, means the EU should pressure the UK.

I get the impression that you think the UK has had easy/plenty of time granted by the EU, that is not the case.

The UK is the 3rd biggest net contributor to the EU, I believe the UK should have every right to have a favourable deal, yes preferably being useful to both the UK and EU. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-biggest-contributors-eu-budget/

"The UK also gives and receives much more money via trade with other EU countries, so transactions with the EU budget aren't the full story when it comes to the UK’s economic relationship with the rest of the EU."

Yes the UK had a vote in 2016. At that time it was Teresa May leader of the Conservative party who was pro remain with mostly pro remain party support and the opposing party (Labour) who was also pro remain trying to deliver a 'brexit' deal. In the media both the major parties (Conservative and Labour and other smaller parties) made big claims in the begining about honouring the vote to leave on live TV only to push a more pro remain deal which angered the population as a democratic vote was being actively subverted.

This eventually lead to a complete break down of parliment (and eventual replacement of the speaker) as the deal Teresa May made was basically capitulation to the EU as a colony and never actually leaving. 

Back when the UK joined the European Economic Community (EEC) it was based mainly upon economic interests to benefit both parties, however evolution has gone much beyond that, as in the European Courts having the power to override the courts of european countries themselves. People see this as power that has simply gone too far (an extra layer of bureaucracy that can not be overturned by a nation) and want out.

For the record I did vote leave and personally have no prejudice towards Europe and the people that live there, however I do believe the European Union has been seeking too much power in the last few years and now it appears to be close to falling apart.

Edit for spelling!

Actually no.

The reason for this is Teresa May having squandered her majority in a useless gamble to gain a bigger majority in parliament and instead lost the majority entirely, as the remainers actually went out to vote this time around. As a result there was a need to water down the deal just to have a chance to get it through parliament. Had she not done that stupid early election, I'm pretty sure we'd been where we are now a year earlier and no extension would have been needed.

And while the UK is one of the biggest contributors, if the country were weighted the same as every other country, so without any rebates, it would have been much bigger, just check their 2017 Budget, point 3.4: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/691017/EU_finances_2017_Cm9576_web.pdf

That's a difference of almost 10 Billions that the UK didn't have to contribute in that year alone. Uk did practically only pay half of their gross contribution to the UK



Good points there Boff, but one thing is wrong for sure. It was not that remainers went out in higher numbers in Theresa Mays election. The fact is Labour stood on a ticket to honour the Brexit referendum, and gained a huge increase, which was lost when people saw it had been a pack of lies. It was one of the main reasons life long labour voters voted Tory when the next election came around.



Jaxyfoo said:
Good points there Boff, but one thing is wrong for sure. It was not that remainers went out in higher numbers in Theresa Mays election. The fact is Labour stood on a ticket to honour the Brexit referendum, and gained a huge increase, which was lost when people saw it had been a pack of lies. It was one of the main reasons life long labour voters voted Tory when the next election came around.

Yeah, couldn't exactly remember why people voted Labour back then and just stated what I thought remembering, my bad!



Quartz said:

The UK is the 3rd biggest net contributor to the EU, I believe the UK should have every right to have a favourable deal, yes preferably being useful to both the UK and EU. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-biggest-contributors-eu-budget/

This eventually lead to a complete break down of parliment (and eventual replacement of the speaker) as the deal Teresa May made was basically capitulation to the EU as a colony and never actually leaving.

Back when the UK joined the European Economic Community (EEC) it was based mainly upon economic interests to benefit both parties, however evolution has gone much beyond that, as in the European Courts having the power to override the courts of european countries themselves. People see this as power that has simply gone too far (an extra layer of bureaucracy that can not be overturned by a nation) and want out.

For the record I did vote leave and personally have no prejudice towards Europe and the people that live there, however I do believe the European Union has been seeking too much power in the last few years and now it appears to be close to falling apart.

the UK economy benefits by £70bn NET per year from the EEZ

it's true that the deal was not actual leaving, but Boris deal is practically the same thing... no? it just keeps NI in the customs union in case of a no-deal where May's was keeping the whole UK until a trade deal was fully agreed

the European Court is there to ensure that the EU's laws and standards are obeyed by all countries, I don't see why it is a bad thing, is there any case where the ECJ abused its power? this was just an excuse to scare people, Nigel Farage has got a point on many matters but he is exaggerating almost always

countries have the right of veto in all major EU decisions anyway

just for the record, pro-EU/referendum parties got 2.15 million votes (52.7%) more than the Leave parties (47.3%), it's the broken electoral system that Boris should be thanking for his huge win



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

Jaxyfoo said:
Good points there Boff, but one thing is wrong for sure. It was not that remainers went out in higher numbers in Theresa Mays election. The fact is Labour stood on a ticket to honour the Brexit referendum, and gained a huge increase, which was lost when people saw it had been a pack of lies. It was one of the main reasons life long labour voters voted Tory when the next election came around.

Not sure that's entirely true as when you look at the number of votes (not percentage) for each seat (including in Leave voting areas). Labour lost votes (from 2017 election) to virtually every other party, but mostly to smaller parties including heavy remain parties like Lib Dems, Plaid, SNP and Greens.

On the opposite side, the number of people voting Tory barely increased from 2017. Labour lost mostly Remain voters to small parties as well as a proportion of leave voters in pivotal seats.

I really think Corbyn should have picked a clear stance on Brexit much earlier. He would have had time to argue his case properly or change it well in time for the election campaign. Over two years of dithering really made him look incompetent.

So I don't think it's that remainers didn't turn out (they put their votes elsewhere as they didn't trust Labour) or that leave voters switched to the Tories (otherwise the number of Tory votes would go up by a lot more) so much as Labour just lost voters on both sides.