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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'I was angry and I sent it': Another Justice Brett Kavanaugh accuser referred to FBI after recanting

Hiku said:
o_O.Q said:

swetnick is the one who claims that kavanaugh gang raped her right?

No, that was the original author of the Jane Doe letter. We don't know who she is.
Swetnick claims that she was gang raped at a party that Kavanaugh attended. Not that she was raped by Kavanaugh.

However she also says she witnessed him and Mike Judge "consistently engage in excessive drinking and inappropriate contact of a sexual nature with women", and efforts by him and his friend Mike Judge "to cause girls to become inebriated and disoriented so they could then be 'gang raped' in a side room or bedroom by a 'train' of numerous boys. I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms and many of these parties waiting for their 'turn' with a girl inside the room. These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanaugh,"

Swetnick allegations however have been treated less seriously than accusations against Kavanaugh from two other women: Christine Blasey Ford and Deborah Ramirez.

" I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms and many of these parties"

so if i understand correctly there were at least two of these parties and most likely more given her description where women were forced to have sex with numerous men against their will

 

...so the first question i would ask... is uh why did these women continue to attend these parties after the first one?

does this really make sense to you? seriously?




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LivingMetal said:
SecondWar said:

There is a difference between false and unproven.

Similarly, I wonder how you'd feel if someone who had committed a serious crime against you was about to gain a significant position of power/success. You spoke out against them, and they dragged you through the mud, branded you a liar and got off scot free.

I would call that person out.  I would also recant my statement if there were contradicting evidence because I would never falsely accuse anyone of such wrong doing that would ruin his and his family's lives.  You do know that after the most recent FBI investigation, someone has come out to claim that is was possibly him who was with Dr. Ford and not Justice Kavanaugh, right?

Wait so, if a scenario where you know somone has committed a serious crime against you (I don't necessarily mean sexual assault), you would be more concerned about about ruining their life with your accusations. Doesn't matter if he is rapist/murderer/fraudster etc

I don't mean scenario where you think you know, I mean are certain it was them.

You also site a 'claim' that it was 'possibly' this other person in the alleged incident. How do you know that this person isn't making their story up for attention, like so many people say Dr Ford is?



Torillian said:
DonFerrari said:
And we are led to believe that false claims aren't common and if a woman says she was rapped then it must be true.

About a month ago we had a singer in Brazil accusing Vice President candidate of having tortured him during military regime in Brazil. Even though the VP candidate was still 16 years old at the occasion (and would only join army several years later). But again we are led to believe the person wouldn't ever forget someone who made such a heinous act. So did the guy lied that he was ever tortured or just that this person was the perpetrator?

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf

Studies indicate false claims happen between 2-10%. I'd call that not common. You found an instance where it happened and tossed out another one and you want to use that to make claims about overall trends. Do you even math, bro?

Considering law have "innocent until proven otherwise", "burden of proof", "total and ample defense", "false accusations", "false testimony" even 2 or 10% is enough reason to not accept a simple claim as solid proof as many try to push for sexual assault trial don't you think?



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SecondWar said:
LivingMetal said:

I would call that person out.  I would also recant my statement if there were contradicting evidence because I would never falsely accuse anyone of such wrong doing that would ruin his and his family's lives.  You do know that after the most recent FBI investigation, someone has come out to claim that is was possibly him who was with Dr. Ford and not Justice Kavanaugh, right?

Wait so, if a scenario where you know somone has committed a serious crime against you (I don't necessarily mean sexual assault), you would be more concerned about about ruining their life with your accusations. Doesn't matter if he is rapist/murderer/fraudster etc

I don't mean scenario where you think you know, I mean are certain it was them.

You also site a 'claim' that it was 'possibly' this other person in the alleged incident. How do you know that this person isn't making their story up for attention, like so many people say Dr Ford is?

Reread my response.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Even accusers.  Even you... like now.



DonFerrari said:
Torillian said:

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf

Studies indicate false claims happen between 2-10%. I'd call that not common. You found an instance where it happened and tossed out another one and you want to use that to make claims about overall trends. Do you even math, bro?

Considering law have "innocent until proven otherwise", "burden of proof", "total and ample defense", "false accusations", "false testimony" even 2 or 10% is enough reason to not accept a simple claim as solid proof as many try to push for sexual assault trial don't you think?

I mean if you want to push your goalposts from "common" to "happens enough that we should not accept a claim as solid proof" I can agree. Though I'm unsure about your last bit of the sentence "not accept a simple claim as solid proof as many try to push for sexual assault trial don't you think?" If you're saying that you don't think an accusation should be enough to start a trial I agree, but I agree that it can't be the only evidence. I don't think a "simple claim" should be the only evidence for a conviction, but it's certainly a part of the evidence. 

Now, can we agree, however, that math does not work by "I found two examples I think it's common"?



...

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LivingMetal said:
SecondWar said:

Wait so, if a scenario where you know somone has committed a serious crime against you (I don't necessarily mean sexual assault), you would be more concerned about about ruining their life with your accusations. Doesn't matter if he is rapist/murderer/fraudster etc

I don't mean scenario where you think you know, I mean are certain it was them.

You also site a 'claim' that it was 'possibly' this other person in the alleged incident. How do you know that this person isn't making their story up for attention, like so many people say Dr Ford is?

Reread my response.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Even accusers.  Even you... like now.

Reread my response. I'm not talking about a scenario where you think it is somone, I mean a scenario where you categorically KNOW it is them who did it. 

They call you a liar, the papers says who made it up for attention. Somebody else says maybe it was possibly it was actually them (not who you 'falsely' accused) they don't remember that well. Guess that this random claim means you're definitely lying, as this other person can't be making it up like you are.

But you know it was them, their face burned I to your brain forever. Still, some people make a thread online that says you should go to jail because you're a liar and have ruined someone else's life with you accusations and pursuit of justice.



SecondWar said:
LivingMetal said:

Reread my response.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Even accusers.  Even you... like now.

Reread my response. I'm not talking about a scenario where you think it is somone, I mean a scenario where you categorically KNOW it is them who did it. 

They call you a liar, the papers says who made it up for attention. Somebody else says maybe it was possibly it was actually them (not who you 'falsely' accused) they don't remember that well. Guess that this random claim means you're definitely lying, as this other person can't be making it up like you are.

But you know it was them, their face burned I to your brain forever. Still, some people make a thread online that says you should go to jail because you're a liar and have ruined someone else's life with you accusations and pursuit of justice.

The problem is you are taking her side and believing her words. Just cause she says that she is 100% certain, and no mistake, ect, doesn't mean that it is true.



irstupid said:
SecondWar said:

Reread my response. I'm not talking about a scenario where you think it is somone, I mean a scenario where you categorically KNOW it is them who did it. 

They call you a liar, the papers says who made it up for attention. Somebody else says maybe it was possibly it was actually them (not who you 'falsely' accused) they don't remember that well. Guess that this random claim means you're definitely lying, as this other person can't be making it up like you are.

But you know it was them, their face burned I to your brain forever. Still, some people make a thread online that says you should go to jail because you're a liar and have ruined someone else's life with you accusations and pursuit of justice.

The problem is you are taking her side and believing her words. Just cause she says that she is 100% certain, and no mistake, ect, doesn't mean that it is true.

Actually I keep referencing either hypothetical scenarios or the alleged incident. Emphasis on alleged. Why is it not a problem that you believe him?

I equally just because he says 100% he didn't do it doesn't mean it's false.



spurgeonryan said:
Sad when inncocent men, including leaders have to fight to be proven innocent with meetoo.

Men are the new witches, and we are being hunted.

How do you know their innocent? Isn't it a bigger problem when guilty men get away with it?



NightlyPoe said:
Hiku said:

They didn't even bother questioning the woman who credibly (GOP members and Trump's own words) accused Kavanaugh after taking and passing the most accurate type of polygraph.

Was there something more Ford wanted to tell the FBI that she couldn't tell the Senate?  What's the basis of this complaint?

Not to mention him obviously committing perjury by claiming Devil's Triangle is a drinking game, among other things. And he's a judge. Who seemingly thinks it's ok to lie under oath. But it's ok to have a supreme court justice who doesn't give two shits about the oath?

Several people have confirmed that Devil's Triangle was a drinking game both at Kavanaugh's school and also by people who say Kavanaugh taught him the game.

And if you think they're all lying, I'll remind you that the term was used several times in that yearbook.  And then I'll also remind you that this was the early-80s and we're talking about a bunch of boys at a prep school.  Now, do you think it's likely that there was a ton of guys at Kavanaugh's school that yelled out to the world that they liked to get naked with other dudes?

The devil's triangle perjury is wishful thinking.

And it's not the first time he seemingly lied under oath, which is a criminal offense. Two other occasions were discovered in the hundreds of thousand pages of documents that the GOP didn't want Democrats to read until 15 hours before the hearing. And a criminal investigation into this was initiated in Washington, but as you know the GOP were not interested in waiting for the outcome of it, but decided to push him through as soon as possible as their candidate regardless of that.

The two charges of perjury that Democrats had previously been making were specious at best and relied on reading individual sentences instead of the broader scope of the answers.  For example, in one Kavanaugh said he wasn't handling Pickering's nomination.  Democrats found an email where he talked about the Pickering nomination.

Aha right!?  Well, no.  Kavanaugh, in his original testimony went on to say that he was somewhat involved and may even have participated in a mock hearing with him.  "Handling" meant more that Pickering was his judge.

Aside, Pickering was falsely accused of racism by Democrats.  So smearing a person's good name for political reasons is an old game for Democrats.

Same thing with the other one involving Democrats having their emails leaked.  Democrats actually knew this back when Kavanaugh was first confirmed as a Circuit judge, but didn't even accuse him of perjury back then, not because they didn't have documents, but because it was a ridiculous charge as it didn't contradict his full statement.

BTW, those leaked Democrat emails?  Well, they showed Democrats getting together to deny a Latino a judgeship specifically because they were afraid that he'd become the first Hispanic Supreme Court justice.  The method they decided to use?  Well, they just kept demanding documents be released until the Bush administration had to exert executive privilege, and then Democrats made him (Miguel Estrada) the first nominee ever killed by a filibuster.

Yeah, Democrats have been playing the game of making unreasonable demands for documents and then using it as an excuse for killing a nominee as well.  It's a favorite strategy.

Eagle367 said:
He still isn't fit for the supreme court. He was angry and shouting like crazy. I wouldn't want that for my supreme court justice. Just an outsider's perspective who's neither democrat not republican and as impartial as possible.

His reputation and life will never be the same.  His life will be permanently in danger because of this.  He has lost a job over this.  His daughters will face consequences.  His wife will face consequences.  This will be the first thing mentioned when he dies.

There's a certain smugness in the whole notion that having basic human emotions in response to an injustice is itself disqualifying.  It's not just you, I know that the final argument made against him was, "Well, we can't prove this, but look, he didn't take his public humiliation with humility.  That proves he's not qualified."  However, it's a ridiculous standard to put someone up against.

 

No it's not. He didn't lose any job. And the supreme court is a ridiculous job. A judge in essence has to stay calm and collected. A judge can't scream and shout at senators like that. Just like a cop can't break someone's hand if they insult him. Hell a cop isn't supposed to get angry when someone insults them to their face. There are plenty of jobs where you can't get angry even if someone insults you. And getting angry is different from getting angry and shouting at senators, Getting angry at a false accusation the moment you hear it is different from processing it and defending yourself from it in a professional setting. He was snug and angry and for some reason bringing up beer a lot. He knew he was getting into the supreme court and was just being spiteful and sort of rubbing it in the face of everyone at the hearing. That sort of disposition does not belong on any sort of supreme court. I wouldn't want such a guy to be a judge on any of my cases let alone deciding the future if my country's legal framework

 

 

Ntt



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