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Rab said:
Machiavellian said:

What was appalling about her behaviour.  She bitched about a few calls but in the end, she stood up for Naomi when the crowd was booing.  She could have been a real dick and walked off the court but did not.  I am sure she was upset about getting her butt toasted by Naomi but in the end she made sure that her rival got the praise she deserved for her first major.

She has walked off before, she has a history of bullying officials 

That's an outright lie, Serena has never walked off the court. And she has no more history of "bullying" officials than Nadal, Djokovic, Kryrios, Murray. Even Federer who can do no wrong in the eyes of many has had run-ins with officials. Let's not exaggerate here 



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SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:

Usually, I'd ask for sources but I'm going to take your word for it. Certainly a charitable fellow but I still maintain there could have been better forms of raising awareness to the issue of police brutality outside of kneeling. A shirt would have been good with a chance to sell those shirts and raise money for his cause...

A shirt like this one?

That's a little more like it.

Machiavellian said:
KLAMarine said:

Usually, I'd ask for sources but I'm going to take your word for it. Certainly a charitable fellow but I still maintain there could have been better forms of raising awareness to the issue of police brutality outside of kneeling. A shirt would have been good with a chance to sell those shirts and raise money for his cause...

When it comes to a protest, its not about making you comfortable.  Most protest are there to be seen by as many people as possible.  Yes, you can feel there are many different or better ways to form awareness but at the end of the day, you are talking about this issue because awareness was made this way.  It continues to be a subject discussed because of where, when and how.  Today you know more about the kneeling whether you choose to accept it or not then you did before and definitely a shirt would not have brought any more discussion on the topic.  At the end of the day, you still may not care but at least you may be more informed about the person and their cause.

At the same time, it's advisable one not potentially alienate people they may be trying to reach. Going too extreme on a protest could cost one sympathy points.

Additionally, kneeling during the anthem could confuse people and shift the discussion from police brutality to freedom of speech or some other topic which might not have been Kaepernick's original intent. Yes there's more talk but perhaps not the sort of talk originally desired.

SpokenTruth said:
PortisheadBiscuit said:

That's an outright lie, Serena has never walked off the court. And she has no more history of "bullying" officials than Nadal, Djokovic, Kryrios, Murray. Even Federer who can do no wrong in the eyes of many has had run-ins with officials. Let's not exaggerate here 

A black woman has to be quieter, stir up less trouble, and act proper on a level different from her white, male contemporaries lest they labeled the angry, black woman by indignant, white men.

How do you reason?



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steve

Machiavellian said:
Rab said:

She has walked off before, she has a history of bullying officials 

She gets a warning about something her own coach admits, could have left it there and have no point deducted just a warning, she then intentionally breaks her racket knowing its a point deduction offence, then escalated all this but abusing the Umpire also knowing it's an offense, the Umpire followed the rules to the letter, then has a huge sobbing meltdown, threatening the Umpires job, blaming him for sexism, insulting his job and him as a person, the disgusting crowd booing the whole time in support of Serena's bad behaviour like a pack of dogs     

All while the actual winner gets her dream blighted by Serena's poor sportsmanship, seeing that girl heartbroken, barely able to smile or enjoy the moment so some brat player like Serena can get her selfish point across was heartbreaking     

The Australian press, professional players and the general population here found all this a disgusting display of behaviour by Serena and the crowd, if it's not immediately obvious to people in the US then we have different sensibilities to the US obviously   

Yes she has walked off before but did you know why.  Would you even care as you only see the result and not the cause or what lead up to it.  Either way, that is history let's concentrate on this case.  Whether right or wrong, most competitive athletes get upset.  She had her argument but realized still, that this win was an event for Naomi and made sure she gave her respect.  Did you totally ignore that part or it doesn't mean anything.  Has Serena been hot headed in the past, yes, has the sport and it's fans during her younger years treated her like crap, yes.   Case in point would be that nice cartoon from the Herald Sun

I love how Australians are jumping to the defense of that cartoon of Serena and Naomi.  Nothing like making the all black woman look like a large ape jumping on her racket while making the half black half Japanese woman blond and blue eyes white woman but maybe that is how Australians view black people.  When the other person is half black, well you just make them white and move on from there while making the all black woman look like a large brute.  I am not really sure if I care what the Australian press feel.  I will go more towards the professional players and say they are right she overreacted but at least in her later days she understood the situation and gave Naomi her credit.  

Australians aren't any more racist than other people, and our newspaper cartoonists are very even handed when it comes to caricatures, I imagine in the US with your history and heightened sensibilities around race that that cartoon would be triggering, that's on you, but here in Australia it's just a caricature i.e. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtM3jKy79IE  2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfHcYMLAkOM 

Australians obviously do have sensibilities around behaviour and manners, Serena triggered that in us, we wonder how the Umpire must feel being treated like that, accused of so much, having his job threatened by her when he only played by the rules and did his job, I image its been dreadful for him and his family, in Australia we would like to see Serena apologize to him to help make things right, restore some of her dignity and his, if she then wants to bring up other issues regarding tennis then she can do so without ruining a guys career, breakdown on what actually occurred i.e. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0s7afcVnPI 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYsbhMWccMA

Last edited by Rab - on 12 September 2018

Rab said:
Machiavellian said:

Yes she has walked off before but did you know why.  Would you even care as you only see the result and not the cause or what lead up to it.  Either way, that is history let's concentrate on this case.  Whether right or wrong, most competitive athletes get upset.  She had her argument but realized still, that this win was an event for Naomi and made sure she gave her respect.  Did you totally ignore that part or it doesn't mean anything.  Has Serena been hot headed in the past, yes, has the sport and it's fans during her younger years treated her like crap, yes.   Case in point would be that nice cartoon from the Herald Sun

I love how Australians are jumping to the defense of that cartoon of Serena and Naomi.  Nothing like making the all black woman look like a large ape jumping on her racket while making the half black half Japanese woman blond and blue eyes white woman but maybe that is how Australians view black people.  When the other person is half black, well you just make them white and move on from there while making the all black woman look like a large brute.  I am not really sure if I care what the Australian press feel.  I will go more towards the professional players and say they are right she overreacted but at least in her later days she understood the situation and gave Naomi her credit.  

Australians aren't any more racist than other people, and our newspaper cartoonists are very even handed when it comes to caricatures, I imagine in the US with your history and heightened sensibilities around race that that cartoon would be triggering, that's on you, but here in Australia it's just a caricature i.e. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtM3jKy79IE  2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfHcYMLAkOM 

Australians obviously do have sensibilities around behaviour and manners, Serena triggered that in us, we wonder how the Umpire must feel being treated like that, accused of so much, having his job threatened by her when he only played by the rules and did his job, I image its been dreadful for him and his family, in Australia we would like to see Serena apologize to him to help make things right, restore some of her dignity and his, if she then wants to bring up other issues regarding tennis then she can do so without ruining a guys career 

Glad to know Serena is fighting for equality. Can't wait to see when she finally get's her way and woman's matches have sets added to equal the men's...



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EricHiggin said:
Rab said:

Australians aren't any more racist than other people, and our newspaper cartoonists are very even handed when it comes to caricatures, I imagine in the US with your history and heightened sensibilities around race that that cartoon would be triggering, that's on you, but here in Australia it's just a caricature i.e. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtM3jKy79IE  2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfHcYMLAkOM 

Australians obviously do have sensibilities around behaviour and manners, Serena triggered that in us, we wonder how the Umpire must feel being treated like that, accused of so much, having his job threatened by her when he only played by the rules and did his job, I image its been dreadful for him and his family, in Australia we would like to see Serena apologize to him to help make things right, restore some of her dignity and his, if she then wants to bring up other issues regarding tennis then she can do so without ruining a guys career 

Glad to know Serena is fighting for equality. Can't wait to see when she finally get's her way and woman's matches have sets added to equal the men's...

Serena is fighting for equality. In a list of most-expensive tennis fines, she came first in a list filled with white men.

https://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/10-of-the-biggest-fines-in-the-history-of-tennis/?v=8&n=f

Granted, this list is probably outdated but as far as it's concerned, people like Venus Williams and other women have some major catching up to do...



KLAMarine said:
SpokenTruth said:

A shirt like this one?

That's a little more like it.

Machiavellian said:

When it comes to a protest, its not about making you comfortable.  Most protest are there to be seen by as many people as possible.  Yes, you can feel there are many different or better ways to form awareness but at the end of the day, you are talking about this issue because awareness was made this way.  It continues to be a subject discussed because of where, when and how.  Today you know more about the kneeling whether you choose to accept it or not then you did before and definitely a shirt would not have brought any more discussion on the topic.  At the end of the day, you still may not care but at least you may be more informed about the person and their cause.

At the same time, it's advisable one not potentially alienate people they may be trying to reach. Going too extreme on a protest could cost one sympathy points.

Additionally, kneeling during the anthem could confuse people and shift the discussion from police brutality to freedom of speech or some other topic which might not have been Kaepernick's original intent. Yes there's more talk but perhaps not the sort of talk originally desired.

This will always be a tough question as to what alienate someone.  When two different people can look at the same image and see something totally different, trying to tip toe with what alienate someone will have you doing nothing.  As with any message, things evolve.  At first Kap was just sitting on the bench.  The kneeling started to happen because of an Army veteran reached out to Kap and told him how kneeling was a sign of respect in the military for fallen comrades.

People who protest really are not looking for sympathy.  They are looking for recognition and discourse of the issues and awareness.  Sympathy really doesn't move anyone to action.  The kneeing was better than him sitting on the bench.  The kneeling actually have a story and a compromise with an army vet which is mentioned many times when people try to portray the whole protest as something else.  If anything I believe the kneeling was a much better answer and a strong silent point that continues the discourse.  No matter what Kap did, if his protest was going to go viral, there would have been someone always looking to turn it into something else.  That is what happens with any protest in America.  You either find flaws with the protester, flaws with what they stand for or find a way to change the subject.  

It's interesting that when this all started, I saw a lot of people who made statements that Dr. King would not have done something like this.  It was very clear during that time those people had no clue what Dr. King would do.  Here is one of his letters when he was in prison in Birmingham on the subject.

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

Here is a quote just in case you do not want to read the whole thing.  Tension is the word I would use and its exactly what the kneeling did.

Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.

One of the basic points in your statement is that the action that I and my associates have taken in Birmingham is untimely. Some have asked: "Why didn't you give the new city administration time to act?" The only answer that I can give to this query is that the new Birmingham administration must be prodded about as much as the outgoing one, before it will act. We are sadly mistaken if we feel that the election of Albert Boutwell as mayor will bring the millennium to Birmingham. While Mr. Boutwell is a much more gentle person than Mr. Connor, they are both segregationists, dedicated to maintenance of the status quo. I have hope that Mr. Boutwell will be reasonable enough to see the futility of massive resistance to desegregation. But he will not see this without pressure from devotees of civil rights. My friends, I must say to you that we have not made a single gain in civil rights without determined legal and nonviolent pressure. Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals.

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."



Rab said:
Machiavellian said:

Yes she has walked off before but did you know why.  Would you even care as you only see the result and not the cause or what lead up to it.  Either way, that is history let's concentrate on this case.  Whether right or wrong, most competitive athletes get upset.  She had her argument but realized still, that this win was an event for Naomi and made sure she gave her respect.  Did you totally ignore that part or it doesn't mean anything.  Has Serena been hot headed in the past, yes, has the sport and it's fans during her younger years treated her like crap, yes.   Case in point would be that nice cartoon from the Herald Sun

I love how Australians are jumping to the defense of that cartoon of Serena and Naomi.  Nothing like making the all black woman look like a large ape jumping on her racket while making the half black half Japanese woman blond and blue eyes white woman but maybe that is how Australians view black people.  When the other person is half black, well you just make them white and move on from there while making the all black woman look like a large brute.  I am not really sure if I care what the Australian press feel.  I will go more towards the professional players and say they are right she overreacted but at least in her later days she understood the situation and gave Naomi her credit.  

Australians aren't any more racist than other people, and our newspaper cartoonists are very even handed when it comes to caricatures, I imagine in the US with your history and heightened sensibilities around race that that cartoon would be triggering, that's on you, but here in Australia it's just a caricature i.e. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtM3jKy79IE  2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfHcYMLAkOM 

Australians obviously do have sensibilities around behaviour and manners, Serena triggered that in us, we wonder how the Umpire must feel being treated like that, accused of so much, having his job threatened by her when he only played by the rules and did his job, I image its been dreadful for him and his family, in Australia we would like to see Serena apologize to him to help make things right, restore some of her dignity and his, if she then wants to bring up other issues regarding tennis then she can do so without ruining a guys career, breakdown on what actually occurred i.e. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0s7afcVnPI 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYsbhMWccMA

Lol, well if you call making Naomi a white blond blue eye woman even handed then I have a bridge to sell you.  The picture has a lot of symbolism in it but one thing for sure is you have a picture of a huge black woman jumping up and down looking like one of those nice sambo caricatures while you present the other person as this innocent white blond blue eye woman.  No, I have no clue about racism in Australia, only thing I do know is that you tried to present the Australian press in a light as if they are innocent of any type of stereotypical viewpoint while supporting a stereotypical view point. 

People like to throw the word racist around alot put I will be the first to say that everything isn't racist but stereotypical is something totally different.  What that cartoon says is you have a certain viewpoint towards black woman.  First you made her look fat, next you gave her some really nice big lips, then you suggest the opponent is a white blue eyed white woman suggesting she should give the angry black woman the win.  Whether you understand the stereotypical representation made or not doesn't excuse that you fell right into that stereotypical viewpoint.



Machiavellian said:
KLAMarine said:

That's a little more like it.

At the same time, it's advisable one not potentially alienate people they may be trying to reach. Going too extreme on a protest could cost one sympathy points.

Additionally, kneeling during the anthem could confuse people and shift the discussion from police brutality to freedom of speech or some other topic which might not have been Kaepernick's original intent. Yes there's more talk but perhaps not the sort of talk originally desired.

This will always be a tough question as to what alienate someone.  When two different people can look at the same image and see something totally different, trying to tip toe with what alienate someone will have you doing nothing.  As with any message, things evolve.  At first Kap was just sitting on the bench.  The kneeling started to happen because of an Army veteran reached out to Kap and told him how kneeling was a sign of respect in the military for fallen comrades.

People who protest really are not looking for sympathy.  They are looking for recognition and discourse of the issues and awareness.  Sympathy really doesn't move anyone to action.  The kneeing was better than him sitting on the bench.  The kneeling actually have a story and a compromise with an army vet which is mentioned many times when people try to portray the whole protest as something else.  If anything I believe the kneeling was a much better answer and a strong silent point that continues the discourse.  No matter what Kap did, if his protest was going to go viral, there would have been someone always looking to turn it into something else.  That is what happens with any protest in America.  You either find flaws with the protester, flaws with what they stand for or find a way to change the subject.  

It's interesting that when this all started, I saw a lot of people who made statements that Dr. King would not have done something like this.  It was very clear during that time those people had no clue what Dr. King would do.  Here is one of his letters when he was in prison in Birmingham on the subject.

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

Here is a quote just in case you do not want to read the whole thing.  Tension is the word I would use and its exactly what the kneeling did.

Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.

One of the basic points in your statement is that the action that I and my associates have taken in Birmingham is untimely. Some have asked: "Why didn't you give the new city administration time to act?" The only answer that I can give to this query is that the new Birmingham administration must be prodded about as much as the outgoing one, before it will act. We are sadly mistaken if we feel that the election of Albert Boutwell as mayor will bring the millennium to Birmingham. While Mr. Boutwell is a much more gentle person than Mr. Connor, they are both segregationists, dedicated to maintenance of the status quo. I have hope that Mr. Boutwell will be reasonable enough to see the futility of massive resistance to desegregation. But he will not see this without pressure from devotees of civil rights. My friends, I must say to you that we have not made a single gain in civil rights without determined legal and nonviolent pressure. Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals.

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

It's inevitable that any protest be met with some resistance for whatever reason. My problem with kneeling is there is a better way to protest. Doing it during the anthem gives people license to treat the protest or intended discussion about something else other than police brutality or even just spite it because it happens during the anthem which is profound and sacred to many people.

Now that you bring up Dr. King, Dr. King had it right:

Clearly worded, neatly worded signs during peaceful marches were the right way and making speeches. Dr. King was known for his oratory and one of his major highlights, my favorite one, a speech before the Lincoln Memorial.

I'm sure Dr. King alienated some but his dedication to non-violence ensured that was kept to a minimum.

Kaepernick seems more known for his silence or one would think per the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/sports/colin-kaepernick-nfl-anthem-kneeling.html

Silence isn't really dialogue or at least, not a terribly engaging form of dialogue...

 

At the end of the day, I'm not saying one shouldn't protest during the anthem. I'm just saying if one wishes to do so, they should prepare for their words (or lack of words) and intentions to be twisted and warped by those who were alienated not by the substance of the protest but rather by its form.



RolStoppable said:
KLAMarine said:

It's inevitable that any protest be met with some resistance for whatever reason. My problem with kneeling is there is a better way to protest. Doing it during the anthem gives people license to treat the protest or intended discussion about something else other than police brutality or even just spite it because it happens during the anthem which is profound and sacred to many people.

Now that you bring up Dr. King, Dr. King had it right:

Clearly worded, neatly worded signs during peaceful marches were the right way and making speeches. Dr. King was known for his oratory and one of his major highlights, my favorite one, a speech before the Lincoln Memorial.

I'm sure Dr. King alienated some but his dedication to non-violence ensured that was kept to a minimum.

Kaepernick seems more known for his silence or one would think per the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/sports/colin-kaepernick-nfl-anthem-kneeling.html

Silence isn't really dialogue or at least, not a terribly engaging form of dialogue...

 

At the end of the day, I'm not saying one shouldn't protest during the anthem. I'm just saying if one wishes to do so, they should prepare for their words (or lack of words) and intentions to be twisted and warped by those who were alienated not by the substance of the protest but rather by its form.

Time for a scary analogy:

I am not saying that women shouldn't dress up nicely and do good make-up. But if they do so, they should prepare to get raped.

In other words: Victim blaming.

Big difference to interpret words, actions, and intentions incorrectly and another to actually rape someone.

Rol, you some funny guy or something?