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Forums - Politics Discussion - Are genital preferences transphobic?

It's like reliving Jerry Springer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8_H--pO6AU



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Alara317 said:
I used to think such things as 'micro-aggressions' and the overbearing use of the term 'transphobic' was just hyperbolic nonsense coming from folks who took shit too seriously, but this thread has helped me realize that, holy shit some people are terrible and those terms (micro-aggressions and transphobic) actually DO need to be brought to light and DO need to be addressed.

It literally takes no effort on your part to refer to a trans woman as 'she', but you still refer to them as 'he' because you don't respect them enough to refer to them with the gender they feel best suits them. Calling a Trans woman 'he' then saying 'he's not a lesbian, he's just a straight dude trying to get lesbian chicks' is not only disrespectful, it's a perfect example of a micro-aggression.

Until just today, I laughed at people who used those terms since I had never actually seen them being used sincerely (honestly, the only examples I ever saw was on South Park). However, reading through even a fraction of this thread made me realize that, yeah, Transphobia is a thing, micro-aggressions are an actual thing, and so many of you really are a part of the problem. What's worse? I know that my speaking out on behalf of those who have been marginalized and disrespected will get me labelled as an SJW. Because of course it will. You know how I easily identify terrible people? Anyone who uses 'sjw' as a pejorative when referring to people who insist that you don't use racist, sexist, or other derogatory terminology.

It really, REALLY shouldn't be too much to ask that you treat others with respect. You wanna know WHY trans folk tend to go a little overboard when insisting you use their proper pronouns or are offended by transphobic language and behaviour? It's not because of the majority, it's because of people like you, people who constantly poke and prod and insult and belittle and deride them. It's because far too many people DO devalue a person's identity through micro-aggressions. I hate that term, but here I am using it because it's appropriate.

Stop being disrespectful. Stop being transphobic. Stop trying to justify what boils down to bigotry. Just stop, grow up, and understand that culture as a whole is leaning towards tolerance and acceptance. Trans folk do not do you any harm by asking to be referred to by their chosen pronouns, so stop insulting them by deliberately mis-gendering them.

Holy shit I didn't know I had to explain this.

 

Oh I see now. If we dont use language as forced down our throat by others we're bad people, and committing aggression. I  used to know a schizophrenic once who insisted that he was from another world and could read the future (I actually knew this guy). I never believed him, but now I realize how disrespectful and bigoted I used to be. See gender is not a universal thing. In fact many languages do not have a word for gender. In most languages your gender actually refers to your sex - in English we have divorced the two for arbitrary reasons, but when referring to someones gender I think most people understand that you're referring to their biological sex, because that's a tangible, black and white fact, as opposed to one of hundreds of arbitrary pronouns.

That said if someone asks me to refer to them as their preferred pronoun I will. However that's my personal choice. Once we talk about unisex bathrooms, etc, I'm against it, because we're taking that personal choice and forcing it down everyone.



you know what i find paradoxically endlessly amusing as well as tragic? the fact that the push for these new ideas about sex and gender has primarily been due to feminists.... but these ideas are now causing the concept of women and men to be erased meaning hat a lot of the work that has been done by feminists for women's advocacy.... is now ironically being erased by feminists



anyway yes according to the new ideas on sex and gender, genital preferences are transphobic and could be considered an expression of bigotry



o_O.Q said:
you know what i find paradoxically endlessly amusing as well as tragic? the fact that the push for these new ideas about sex and gender has primarily been due to feminists.... but these ideas are now causing the concept of women and men to be erased meaning hat a lot of the work that has been done by feminists for women's advocacy.... is now ironically being erased by feminists

Postmodernist "third wave" and "fourth wave" feminists, not serious ones.

The main groups I see most aggressively pushing the types of homophobic (most often specifically anti-lesbian) views highlighted in the OP are groups like Degenderettes, Antifa, and Class War. Sometimes people associated with Stonewall. These are all rather male-dominated organizations (biologically speaking) and are notorious for using violence and threats of violence to get their way.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 25 August 2018

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NightlyPoe said:
Alara317 said:
I used to think such things as 'micro-aggressions' and the overbearing use of the term 'transphobic' was just hyperbolic nonsense coming from folks who took shit too seriously, but this thread has helped me realize that, holy shit some people are terrible and those terms (micro-aggressions and transphobic) actually DO need to be brought to light and DO need to be addressed.

It literally takes no effort on your part to refer to a trans woman as 'she', but you still refer to them as 'he' because you don't respect them enough to refer to them with the gender they feel best suits them. Calling a Trans woman 'he' then saying 'he's not a lesbian, he's just a straight dude trying to get lesbian chicks' is not only disrespectful, it's a perfect example of a micro-aggression. 

Is it aggressive, or is it merely an acknowledgement of reality?  Look, I'm all about treating people with with respect.  If a male is more comfortable living a feminine life or vice-versa, that's totally fine.  But when the male declares himself female or the opposite, and further demands that everyone else acknowledge it as well, that's crossing a line into pretending, and you can't force everyone to pretend along with you or you will call them names (an actual form of aggression).

I don't think people do transgender folks any kindness in this.  Instead of learning to accept what they are and move on from there, they are built up by well-meaning people into a falsehood.  When someone then accurately points out the falsehood, they are hurt.  And until everyone in the world is brought into line and agrees that a basic biological fact is fuzzier than it is, this tension will exist.

Let me tell you a story.  Once upon a time, there was a lousy school where children were underperforming.  Well, the school was learning all about how self-esteem is correlated with better grades.  So teachers started over-praising the students and treating them as if all of them were performing brilliantly.  The administrators then sat back and waited for grades to rise.  They didn't.  What actually started rising were the number of fights.

You see, the students did feel good about the teachers praising them.  But deep down, they knew that they actually weren't all that brilliant.  Students also have a sense of self-efficacy (which is actually much more important than self-esteem in students).  They know whether they can do something or not.  Well, kids being kids, they took it upon themselves to point out that very inconvenient fact to each other.  Either their self-esteem would lower itself back down to previous levels, or even lower.  Or the student would feel the need to protect their identity and attack back.  Hence the fights.  The tension between the shell and the reality cracks the student with the artificial self-esteem and causes pain.  It's part of the reason why prison populations have such high self-esteem.  The need to protect their unearned shell and often get themselves into trouble.

Meanwhile, if a smart student is called dumb, they would merely shrug it off.  Even smart students with low self-esteem have those insults nerfed.  Their self-efficacy protects them from that particular insult because, well it's just not true.

What I'm saying here is that if you called me a girl all day, I'd merely look at you funny as would pretty much anyone except those that just find the insult offending in general (honor culture, a separate topic).  However, a transgender person knows the difference and that's why it hurts.  They're living an illusion and the people around them are feeding into it because they have good intentions.  But, as happens in the example above, when the artificial shell is cracked, they are hurt.  You can't live in a bubble forever.

The answer here is not for everyone to get together and ignore reality in order to save transgender people the pain of acknowledging the truth.  That is extremely unhealthy.  It is for everyone to acknowledge exactly what transgender people are, people who feel more comfort within the culturally defined sexual differences of the opposite sex.  Once that is done, you can build the house of tolerance and acceptance on the much stronger foundation of the truth instead of the flimsy foundation of making everyone pretend and trying to bully people into falling into line, which just isn't going to happen and will cause more resentment and resistance than converts and is only going to cause more pain to the transgender individuals in the bargain.

Self acceptance may be a hard quest for some.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
NightlyPoe said:

Is it aggressive, or is it merely an acknowledgement of reality?  Look, I'm all about treating people with with respect.  If a male is more comfortable living a feminine life or vice-versa, that's totally fine.  But when the male declares himself female or the opposite, and further demands that everyone else acknowledge it as well, that's crossing a line into pretending, and you can't force everyone to pretend along with you or you will call them names (an actual form of aggression).

I don't think people do transgender folks any kindness in this.  Instead of learning to accept what they are and move on from there, they are built up by well-meaning people into a falsehood.  When someone then accurately points out the falsehood, they are hurt.  And until everyone in the world is brought into line and agrees that a basic biological fact is fuzzier than it is, this tension will exist.

Let me tell you a story.  Once upon a time, there was a lousy school where children were underperforming.  Well, the school was learning all about how self-esteem is correlated with better grades.  So teachers started over-praising the students and treating them as if all of them were performing brilliantly.  The administrators then sat back and waited for grades to rise.  They didn't.  What actually started rising were the number of fights.

You see, the students did feel good about the teachers praising them.  But deep down, they knew that they actually weren't all that brilliant.  Students also have a sense of self-efficacy (which is actually much more important than self-esteem in students).  They know whether they can do something or not.  Well, kids being kids, they took it upon themselves to point out that very inconvenient fact to each other.  Either their self-esteem would lower itself back down to previous levels, or even lower.  Or the student would feel the need to protect their identity and attack back.  Hence the fights.  The tension between the shell and the reality cracks the student with the artificial self-esteem and causes pain.  It's part of the reason why prison populations have such high self-esteem.  The need to protect their unearned shell and often get themselves into trouble.

Meanwhile, if a smart student is called dumb, they would merely shrug it off.  Even smart students with low self-esteem have those insults nerfed.  Their self-efficacy protects them from that particular insult because, well it's just not true.

What I'm saying here is that if you called me a girl all day, I'd merely look at you funny as would pretty much anyone except those that just find the insult offending in general (honor culture, a separate topic).  However, a transgender person knows the difference and that's why it hurts.  They're living an illusion and the people around them are feeding into it because they have good intentions.  But, as happens in the example above, when the artificial shell is cracked, they are hurt.  You can't live in a bubble forever.

The answer here is not for everyone to get together and ignore reality in order to save transgender people the pain of acknowledging the truth.  That is extremely unhealthy.  It is for everyone to acknowledge exactly what transgender people are, people who feel more comfort within the culturally defined sexual differences of the opposite sex.  Once that is done, you can build the house of tolerance and acceptance on the much stronger foundation of the truth instead of the flimsy foundation of making everyone pretend and trying to bully people into falling into line, which just isn't going to happen and will cause more resentment and resistance than converts and is only going to cause more pain to the transgender individuals in the bargain.

Self acceptance may be a hard quest for some.

So what? maybe it's hard, maybe it's impossible. The solution isnt to make billions of others accept something thats untrue.



NightlyPoe said:
contestgamer said:

So what? maybe it's hard, maybe it's impossible. The solution isnt to make billions of others accept something thats untrue.

That's the thing.  They are trying for self-acceptance.  The people around them pretending with them and attacking anyone who doubts are also trying to help in that self-acceptance.  I don't doubt their sincerity, but I don't accept their methods or conclusions.

Unfortunately, we got stuck in the mud somewhere because of politics and now we're all living in a South Park episode.  Something as basic as male/female was got talked into being abstract instead of concrete.  It's also undercut and corrupted science and the healthcare community as a result, which isn't doing anyone any good.  Particularly in the case of young children who have no concept of what they're asking for having their bodies hormones altered.

I'd argue they're trying to self denial actually and not self acceptance. The difference between gay rights and trans rights is that gays want to be accepted for who they were born as, while trans want to be accepted for who they wished they were born as. 



NightlyPoe said:
contestgamer said:

I'd argue they're trying to self denial actually and not self acceptance. The difference between gay rights and trans rights is that gays want to be accepted for who they were born as, while trans want to be accepted for who they wished they were born as. 

It's both really.  They wish to self-accept that they would be happier living the life of another sex, but wish to deny the reality that they are not.  Hence you get situations like the one this thread is based around.

I don't believe these are irreconcilable though.  If a person feels like they would be happier living such a life, that's fine.  Differences in gender are largely socially defined constructs anyway.  And if they wish to mold their bodies into something that makes them feel more comfortable in living such a life, that's their business.

But acceptance of what they are also needs to be a part of it.  Whatever differences are being made are, in the end, cosmetic.  If that lingering fact causes pain, then they need to seek help in addressing it.  And the medical community needs to help bridge the gap between wish and reality instead of hand-waving it and declaring a falsehood to be true.

Yeah but nobody is against trans people having the right to make cosmetic changes to themselves, or to believe whatever they believe about themselves. The problem is that this is being forced out in to society at large to accept. It's the rest of us that now need to accept gender neutral bathrooms, compelled pronoun use, so on and so forth. Unfortunately even if they want self acceptance by your definition, they're also looking for social acceptance, which the problem. Not acceptance in the way of live and let live, but acceptance in the way of forcing a change in how society operates.



contestgamer said:
DonFerrari said:

Self acceptance may be a hard quest for some.

So what? maybe it's hard, maybe it's impossible. The solution isnt to make billions of others accept something thats untrue.

I agree with you. And we are still unsure on what would be the best way for it



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."