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Forums - Politics Discussion - Are genital preferences transphobic?

o_O.Q on 25 August 2018
Jaicee said:
o_O.Q said:
you know what i find paradoxically endlessly amusing as well as tragic? the fact that the push for these new ideas about sex and gender has primarily been due to feminists.... but these ideas are now causing the concept of women and men to be erased meaning hat a lot of the work that has been done by feminists for women's advocacy.... is now ironically being erased by feminists

Postmodernist "third wave" and "fourth wave" feminists, not serious ones.

The main groups I see most aggressively pushing the types of homophobic (most often specifically anti-lesbian) views highlighted in the OP are groups like Degenderettes, Antifa, and Class War. Sometimes people associated with Stonewall. These are all rather male-dominated organizations (biologically speaking) and are notorious for using violence and threats of violence to get their way.

i hate to break this to you, but the type of feminists generally taken seriously are post modernist feminists

i mean how someone can even be a post modernist and a feminist at all is so ridiculous that i still at times have trouble believing this is a real thing but whatever

 

" These are all rather male-dominated organizations"

yes many of the women's organisations are headed by men, but the push for these retarded ideas is generally being done aggressively by women

women are sentient beings capable of agency, they can choose to reject these stupid ideas or embrace them... and they are choosing in a massive way to push these ideas aggressively



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o_O.Q on 25 August 2018
Alara317 said:
I used to think such things as 'micro-aggressions' and the overbearing use of the term 'transphobic' was just hyperbolic nonsense coming from folks who took shit too seriously, but this thread has helped me realize that, holy shit some people are terrible and those terms (micro-aggressions and transphobic) actually DO need to be brought to light and DO need to be addressed.

It literally takes no effort on your part to refer to a trans woman as 'she', but you still refer to them as 'he' because you don't respect them enough to refer to them with the gender they feel best suits them. Calling a Trans woman 'he' then saying 'he's not a lesbian, he's just a straight dude trying to get lesbian chicks' is not only disrespectful, it's a perfect example of a micro-aggression.

Until just today, I laughed at people who used those terms since I had never actually seen them being used sincerely (honestly, the only examples I ever saw was on South Park). However, reading through even a fraction of this thread made me realize that, yeah, Transphobia is a thing, micro-aggressions are an actual thing, and so many of you really are a part of the problem. What's worse? I know that my speaking out on behalf of those who have been marginalized and disrespected will get me labelled as an SJW. Because of course it will. You know how I easily identify terrible people? Anyone who uses 'sjw' as a pejorative when referring to people who insist that you don't use racist, sexist, or other derogatory terminology.

It really, REALLY shouldn't be too much to ask that you treat others with respect. You wanna know WHY trans folk tend to go a little overboard when insisting you use their proper pronouns or are offended by transphobic language and behaviour? It's not because of the majority, it's because of people like you, people who constantly poke and prod and insult and belittle and deride them. It's because far too many people DO devalue a person's identity through micro-aggressions. I hate that term, but here I am using it because it's appropriate.

Stop being disrespectful. Stop being transphobic. Stop trying to justify what boils down to bigotry. Just stop, grow up, and understand that culture as a whole is leaning towards tolerance and acceptance. Trans folk do not do you any harm by asking to be referred to by their chosen pronouns, so stop insulting them by deliberately mis-gendering them.

Holy shit I didn't know I had to explain this.

"It literally takes no effort on your part to refer to a trans woman as 'she', but you still refer to them as 'he' because you don't respect them enough to refer to them with the gender they feel best suits them. Calling a Trans woman 'he' then saying 'he's not a lesbian, he's just a straight dude trying to get lesbian chicks' is not only disrespectful, it's a perfect example of a micro-aggression. "

my pronouns are rex and rey... i hope that to be consistent you'll refer to me as rex right?



o_O.Q on 25 August 2018

after looking through this thread some more, i'm realising that a lot of people are unaware of what's coming and that's unfortunate lol but mildly amusing regardless



o_O.Q on 25 August 2018
HylianSwordsman said:
Jaicee said:

Anyone who follows my posts is probably wondering by now why I'm here and not on a place like ResetEra 'where I clearly belong' or something to this effect. This thread will exemplify why.

I haven't really made a thread all about this before, but if I can be perfectly honest and not come across as a complete bigot for saying so, I have difficulties with the transgender movement. I don't dislike people who feel like they belong to some identity other than their birth one. In point of fact, to be more painfully honest, I don't really like my body and am fairly insecure in my own femininity and I think can kind of relate to the feeling a little.

Many of the demands of the transgender movement though offend me. Stuff like this:

In the above modern classic commentary, a (sorry to be impolite) man who claims to be a woman argues that "genital preferences are transphobic" and specifically singles out women who are only sexually attracted to other women (that would be me!) for critique in this regard. You see, in the current parlance of the social justice movement, one cannot be an authentic lesbian unless one is open to sex with men who claim to be women. This does not work for me. To be frank, I find the male penis disgusting (sorry!) and the sight of it an instant turn-off sexually. When I say as much to some of my friends on Facebook, I sometimes get called things like a "vagina fetishist" in reply, as though my orientation means that I'm a predator! It's ridiculous. The claim that everyone (or at least all women anyway) should be bisexual in order to be politically correct renders the whole concept of lesbianism moot and irrelevant.

I don't have a deeper point here. It's just something that frustrates me and the kind of thing that sometimes I want to say but don't feel like I would be allowed to on a place like ResetEra.

You're definitely in a safe place to say this, haha. I agree that certain demands of the transgender movement are unreasonable, and that I frequently feel like progressive leaning areas of discourse are not safe to express such an idea, and I find that very frustrating. This demand you highlight here is particularly repulsive. I would however say that it is entirely possible for someone born with a penis to have the a gender identity opposite their sex. I've seen instances of transgendered elementary schoolers attempting suicide over having the gender corresponding to their sex forced upon them. For someone that young to have such a strong connection of their identity to the gender opposite their sex, and for that to develop at an age before one develops most of their identity (during your teens) suggest to me that it isn't someone playing around with their identity or not serious about feeling that they are the gender they believe themselves to be, and I don't think it's the product of some psychosis or psychological disorder either, as there is already scientific evidence suggesting that a transgender child's mind develops differently in the womb to a cisgender child. As this is the best evidence I have to explain the phenomenon, I don't believe that transgendered individuals are "men" claiming to be "women" or vice versa, but rather that their minds truly are of a gender opposite their biological sex. It sounds, according to the rhetoric you use, like you reject the sincerity of the claims of transgendered individuals. I used to reject it as well, up until probably the early 2010s, when I came upon sufficient evidence that convinced me that transgendered individuals were sincere and that like sexual orientation, their gender identity was determined at birth, not formed later.

That said, no one, man or woman, regardless of what genitals they have, has any right to demand anyone else to have no preference for what genitals they wish to have sex with. Such demands, I daresay, border on rape culture. I should add though, on your note of "all women anyway", that in theory, transgender female-to-male individuals, who have vaginas, could hypothetically ask gay males to not have a preference for penises and accept vaginas, in a mirror of the situation you're concerned about here. I don't know if such demands are made (hell maybe it was made in that video, which I confess I didn't have the patience or temperament to sit through) but they would be equally wrong. 

I don't blame you for finding the male penis disgusting either. I do myself, so it's easy to imagine.

"Many of the demands of the transgender movement though offend me."

you need to be more compassionate, you have to understand that these are people who have suffered at the hands of society for centuries, so it should be alright now for more privileged people to step back a bit and allow them to have more rights

why does that offend you?

 

"That said, no one, man or woman, regardless of what genitals they have, has any right to demand anyone else to have no preference for what genitals they wish to have sex with."

but that's transphobic, because what it means is that you are using biology to determine whether a person is man or woman over their stated identity

in effect you are erasing their identity when you do so which as far as i understand is bigotry

 

"Such demands, I daresay, border on rape culture."

bullshit, no one is forcing anyone to have sex with anyone, all that is being said is that to use biology rather than identity in your partner selection is biological determinism in its worst manifestation and the height of transphobia

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 25 August 2018

contestgamer on 25 August 2018
o_O.Q said:
HylianSwordsman said:

You're definitely in a safe place to say this, haha. I agree that certain demands of the transgender movement are unreasonable, and that I frequently feel like progressive leaning areas of discourse are not safe to express such an idea, and I find that very frustrating. This demand you highlight here is particularly repulsive. I would however say that it is entirely possible for someone born with a penis to have the a gender identity opposite their sex. I've seen instances of transgendered elementary schoolers attempting suicide over having the gender corresponding to their sex forced upon them. For someone that young to have such a strong connection of their identity to the gender opposite their sex, and for that to develop at an age before one develops most of their identity (during your teens) suggest to me that it isn't someone playing around with their identity or not serious about feeling that they are the gender they believe themselves to be, and I don't think it's the product of some psychosis or psychological disorder either, as there is already scientific evidence suggesting that a transgender child's mind develops differently in the womb to a cisgender child. As this is the best evidence I have to explain the phenomenon, I don't believe that transgendered individuals are "men" claiming to be "women" or vice versa, but rather that their minds truly are of a gender opposite their biological sex. It sounds, according to the rhetoric you use, like you reject the sincerity of the claims of transgendered individuals. I used to reject it as well, up until probably the early 2010s, when I came upon sufficient evidence that convinced me that transgendered individuals were sincere and that like sexual orientation, their gender identity was determined at birth, not formed later.

That said, no one, man or woman, regardless of what genitals they have, has any right to demand anyone else to have no preference for what genitals they wish to have sex with. Such demands, I daresay, border on rape culture. I should add though, on your note of "all women anyway", that in theory, transgender female-to-male individuals, who have vaginas, could hypothetically ask gay males to not have a preference for penises and accept vaginas, in a mirror of the situation you're concerned about here. I don't know if such demands are made (hell maybe it was made in that video, which I confess I didn't have the patience or temperament to sit through) but they would be equally wrong. 

I don't blame you for finding the male penis disgusting either. I do myself, so it's easy to imagine.

"That said, no one, man or woman, regardless of what genitals they have, has any right to demand anyone else to have no preference for what genitals they wish to have sex with."

but that's transphobic, because what it means is that you are using biology to determine whether a person is man or woman over their stated identity

in effect you are erasing their identity when you do so which as far as i understand is bigotry

 

"Such demands, I daresay, border on rape culture."

bullshit, no one is forcing anyone to have sex with anyone, all that is being said is that to use biology rather than identity in your partner selection is biological determinism in its worst manifestation and the height of transphobia

OK I was about to go ape*** but read your sig.



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Pemalite on 25 August 2018
Jaicee said:
Pemalite said:

As someone who is part of the LGBTQI community with a heap of Trans friends... I also disagree with her. Strongly.
Sadly, someone, somewhere will associate this with everyone on the left-wing political spectrum or the LGBTQI community.

I must not be sufficiently in touch with the heart of the scene anymore. What does the I stand for?

Have mercy on me. I grew up in a time when it was just the LGB movement. There was no T, there was no Q, and there certainly was nothing else. It was about sexual orientation. That was pretty well all. It doesn't even seem like that's the main focus of it anymore. (Sorry to sound exhausted.)

LGBT was the term most frequently thrown around even in the early 90's.
I stands for Intersex.

It's become habit for me to list the extra's, but certainly not required.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Jaicee on 25 August 2018
Pemalite said:

LGBT was the term most frequently thrown around even in the early 90's.
I stands for Intersex.

It's become habit for me to list the extra's, but certainly not required.

I'm pretty sure I remember the T coming into the mainstream around the turn of the century.

Anyway, that makes sense on the I. Okay.



Jaicee on 25 August 2018
o_O.Q said:
Jaicee said:

Postmodernist "third wave" and "fourth wave" feminists, not serious ones.

The main groups I see most aggressively pushing the types of homophobic (most often specifically anti-lesbian) views highlighted in the OP are groups like Degenderettes, Antifa, and Class War. Sometimes people associated with Stonewall. These are all rather male-dominated organizations (biologically speaking) and are notorious for using violence and threats of violence to get their way.

i hate to break this to you, but the type of feminists generally taken seriously are post modernist feminists

i mean how someone can even be a post modernist and a feminist at all is so ridiculous that i still at times have trouble believing this is a real thing but whatever

 

" These are all rather male-dominated organizations"

yes many of the women's organisations are headed by men, but the push for these retarded ideas is generally being done aggressively by women

women are sentient beings capable of agency, they can choose to reject these stupid ideas or embrace them... and they are choosing in a massive way to push these ideas aggressively

Aww nevermind.



DarthMetalliCube on 25 August 2018
Alara317 said:
I used to think such things as 'micro-aggressions' and the overbearing use of the term 'transphobic' was just hyperbolic nonsense coming from folks who took shit too seriously, but this thread has helped me realize that, holy shit some people are terrible and those terms (micro-aggressions and transphobic) actually DO need to be brought to light and DO need to be addressed.

It literally takes no effort on your part to refer to a trans woman as 'she', but you still refer to them as 'he' because you don't respect them enough to refer to them with the gender they feel best suits them. Calling a Trans woman 'he' then saying 'he's not a lesbian, he's just a straight dude trying to get lesbian chicks' is not only disrespectful, it's a perfect example of a micro-aggression.

Until just today, I laughed at people who used those terms since I had never actually seen them being used sincerely (honestly, the only examples I ever saw was on South Park). However, reading through even a fraction of this thread made me realize that, yeah, Transphobia is a thing, micro-aggressions are an actual thing, and so many of you really are a part of the problem. What's worse? I know that my speaking out on behalf of those who have been marginalized and disrespected will get me labelled as an SJW. Because of course it will. You know how I easily identify terrible people? Anyone who uses 'sjw' as a pejorative when referring to people who insist that you don't use racist, sexist, or other derogatory terminology.

It really, REALLY shouldn't be too much to ask that you treat others with respect. You wanna know WHY trans folk tend to go a little overboard when insisting you use their proper pronouns or are offended by transphobic language and behaviour? It's not because of the majority, it's because of people like you, people who constantly poke and prod and insult and belittle and deride them. It's because far too many people DO devalue a person's identity through micro-aggressions. I hate that term, but here I am using it because it's appropriate.

Stop being disrespectful. Stop being transphobic. Stop trying to justify what boils down to bigotry. Just stop, grow up, and understand that culture as a whole is leaning towards tolerance and acceptance. Trans folk do not do you any harm by asking to be referred to by their chosen pronouns, so stop insulting them by deliberately mis-gendering them.

Holy shit I didn't know I had to explain this.

Um, I'm not sure what thread you're reading, but I don't think most people here are disrespectful towards trans people, whatsoever.. At least I didn't get that impression from their posts. The issue is that some within the trans community (and others) are being completely disrespectful towards a lesbian cis woman because she has a hard wired attraction to female anatomy and is turned off by a penis. THAT is disrespectful. Unless there's some transphobic post that I missed within this thread here?

Edit: Oh, I see you mean referring to them as their preferred pronouns. Ok, I take it back then for the most part, although I still would have to say you're blowing that issue way out of proportion. If a trans strongly and genuinely sees themselves as a woman, cool. Do they really need that reassurance from people calling them "she"? Don't get me wrong I certainly feel they should be referred to as such, and that should be respective, but to me completely demonizing someone for using the word "he" rather than "she" I feel completely blows things out of proportion and is somewhat closeminded and disrespectful in and of itself. And furthermore as a Libertarian it "triggers" me when people are FORCED to say ANYTHING.

And when did the referral of "he" or "she" become associated with respect or disrespect anyway?

Last edited by DarthMetalliCube - on 25 August 2018

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

Desertghost on 25 August 2018
vivster said:
I wanted to make a thread about this for a long time. My current hypothesis is that transgender has absolutely nothing to do with genetics or psychology and is rather a very much social phenomenon. The concept of gender is extremely artificial and it's created by society. Treating genders differently might help lower species to survive but it's irrelevant for humans.

The actual problem is that genders are defined at all when they shouldn't be. If there were no gender definitions or norms there would not exist a single transgender person. behaving "feminine" or "masculine" should not be a thing. It only exists because we defined it. So instead of a person saying I like to wear dresses and makeup, that person is saying "like to be more feminine" because that's what we defined it as. Now if there weren't such gender definitions nobody would give a crap. If you have a dick but would like to look like a woman and have sex with men, then you're just that. A person with specific preferences. You're not female, you just have a specific taste.

But since gender roles have such a gigantic influence in our society transgender is a thing. Everyone who defines a woman with very specific behavior is part of the problem. Same with gender specific rights. I don't give stamp collectors special rights, so I certainly don't care what kind of genitals you'd like to have.

In an ideal world you are born as a person and then live like a person and we all use the same fucking bathroom. Gender is nothing more than a fancy categorization that is basically based on nothing but tradition.

Interesting thought. But every person is born in one of two groups one group has chromosomes XX and the other has chromosomes XY. This difference in genetics affects their physical appearance, their muscles, and ability to procreate. Would you not want to define that somehow?