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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's Personal Lawyer And Campaign Manager Both Going To Prison

Trump's legacy is going to be garbage.



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NightlyPoe said:
Final-Fan said:

1.  Are you saying Congress can pass no law restricting what the policies the executive branch does and does not pursue or how it goes about doing so? 

I'm saying they can't criminalize an inherent power of the president on separation of powers grounds.

2.  It is your opinion that this was done primarily for "political" reasons (by which I assume you mean relating to party politics i.e. election-winning), but I think there is a pretty reasonable case to be made that any such benefit was a "side benefit" of what the President already wanted to do for policy reasons.  Even if the timing was entirely political in that sense that doesn't necessarily mean the thing itself was political—the Emancipation Proclamation is a good example of this concept at work.  

It was issued two months before the election.  And Obama himself said that it wasn't legal for him to do previously and had to be done through legislation.  Yes he wanted to do it anyway, but he very much issued the order for political purposes.

4.  My point is that if the president is acting contrary to his constitutional oath, then how can the very same act be constitutionally protected from being named by Congress as a criminal act? 

Again, separation of powers.

The mechanism for dealing with abuses of power that are being alleged impeachment.

I should probably go back before I give the impression otherwise, that I tend to think that Trump was just being Trump and the allegation itself is pretty flimsy and that he really was just asking Comey to let it go as a favor to Flynn.  Not as part of anything particularly corrupt.

So if he had a foreign girlfriend, and broke up with her, ordering a drone strike on her would also not be criminal as long as ordering drone strikes is within his power. 



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NightlyPoe said:
Machiavellian said:

Cohen and his lawyer are not going to plead guilty to a no charge, that is absolutely silly to even keep that pretense up. 

I brought this up earlier, but I think it has merit.  Would it have been legal for Trump to, say, pay off his mistresses with campaign money and then report it when campaign expenses needed to be filed.  From everything I understand, the answer to that is "No."  Therefore, this can't be a campaign expense because it would mean that it couldn't have been done either way.  The law would contradict itself.   The options would be:

1.  Use personal money.  Don't report it.  Be charged with not reporting a campaign donation.

2.  Use campaign money.  Report it.  Be charged with misuse of campaign funds.

The prosecutors can't have it both ways.  It's either a legitimate campaign expense or it's something else.  And I, for one, would just as soon campaign donations not go to keeping mistresses quiet.

As for Cohen pleading guilty, that doesn't mean anything since they had him on other charges.  It's silly to keep up the pretense that Cohen and his lawyer had the option to fight that battle separately.

1.  Does not matter if he used his personal money or not.  Its has always been a case of when the payments were made and in what relation to the campaign.  You cannot sit there and say 2 affairs from 2006 was something he was going to pay hush money for before running for Office.  Any payments made to the campaign whether personal, through a corporation you own or do not own or an outside entity is subject to campaign finance laws.  Read up on this part as you are totally wrong on 1 and 2.  The key part you have to look at is whether Trump and Cohen made those payments for the campaign instead of personal.  The burden still will be with the prosecutors to prove this point and that's why they have secured immunity for 2 very key people in this whole mess.  One is David Pecker, who they have record of him telling Trump and Cohen that they need to pay Karen or it would be POLITICAL suicide. That alone could bury any Trump defense if he testify to that.  Second is Allen Weisselberg CFO of Trump organization.  They probably secured his testimony because he can verify that the money came from Trump Organization which kills the whole personal from his pocket defense and seals the deal.  

As stated, Cohen lawyer isn't going to have his client plead guilty to something he did not do.  It doesn't make sense.  You can argue that Cohen being guilty doesn't mean Trump is guilty since there are circumstances that have to happen in order for Trump to be guilty but we will see if that comes out or not.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

It's not like Trump out of the blue remembered he once had a fling with her and decided to phone her up and offer her hush money just in case. If you were her, and wanted something out of it the whole time, or decided since Trump was in an election and was vulnerable, wouldn't you pounce? It's not his fault she was going to come out and that the media was going to make a big deal out of it now, which you can bet they wouldn't have, if it was before he decided to run. Trump just needs to point out that it was a personal issue and he paid it to keep his family and business blind to the situation. The fact that she wanted to use his political nomination to get the money out of him has nothing to do with Trump himself. It was pure chance as far as he's concerned and without hard evidence, that's the way it will be judged.

It's not Trump fault that he had an affair while he was married and they decided while running for the president he should get ahead of the story that could potentially come out and shut it down.  Its totally his fault.  Its his fault for the not one or a couple but many affairs he has had with every wife.  If anything since he has cheated on every wife he has and we all know it, he could have saved himself some coin and just admitted it.  You are basically trying to absolve Trump from any of his guilts, then the lies he stated when it was still found out and saying nothing was his fault.  You have no personal issues when it comes to affairs as a President running for public office.  If he want to keep his dirty laundry quite then stay a private citizen.  What I find funny is another excuse trying to shift blame somewhere else for this man decisions.  Since he had no intention of making payments to any of these women before going for President, it was done for the campaign no matter how you try to portray it.  The good thing for Trump is that it still something hard to prove unless multiple other sources have evidence to the fact.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It was his fault for screwing around, if he did. The fact that this case, or any of them, happened before his campaign, and not during his Presidency, unlike some former 'great', 'well respected' American Presidents, leads me to believe this is quite far from a political matter in terms of affairs.

We all assume we know a lot of things. Legal guilt's. So Trump is going to be the last American President ever because anyone with any faults should stay a private citizen? Which is every single human being of age, ever. Who says what they really wanted from Trump was hush money in the first place? Your saying it's impossible that Stormy, etc, was paid off in some form by a lefty or the media, behind the scenes, to bring this into the public limelight for political reasons? No other possible scenario's?

While not completely out of the question at this point in time, it is unlikely that there is hard evidence against Trump. The good thing for Trump, is that he's The Donald.



Russia made me vote for Trump!



steve

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I doubt it will have even the slightest effect on Trump's voters. Backwater hicks won't change their votes no matter what. They preach morals and ethics all the time but when push comes to shove their morals are as shallow as a puddle of water.

There was a famous leader of the KKK back in the 20's, D. C. Stephenson, who pretty much owned Indiana and got away with pretty much everything. It wasn't until he raped, tortured, and tried to eat his white girlfriend that he finally got dethroned by his followers. This is the level of conservative morals, you can get away with anything short of cannibalism.



EricHiggin said:
Machiavellian said:

It's not Trump fault that he had an affair while he was married and they decided while running for the president he should get ahead of the story that could potentially come out and shut it down.  Its totally his fault.  Its his fault for the not one or a couple but many affairs he has had with every wife.  If anything since he has cheated on every wife he has and we all know it, he could have saved himself some coin and just admitted it.  You are basically trying to absolve Trump from any of his guilts, then the lies he stated when it was still found out and saying nothing was his fault.  You have no personal issues when it comes to affairs as a President running for public office.  If he want to keep his dirty laundry quite then stay a private citizen.  What I find funny is another excuse trying to shift blame somewhere else for this man decisions.  Since he had no intention of making payments to any of these women before going for President, it was done for the campaign no matter how you try to portray it.  The good thing for Trump is that it still something hard to prove unless multiple other sources have evidence to the fact.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It was his fault for screwing around, if he did. The fact that this case, or any of them, happened before his campaign, and not during his Presidency, unlike some former 'great', 'well respected' American Presidents, leads me to believe this is quite far from a political matter in terms of affairs.

We all assume we know a lot of things. Legal guilt's. So Trump is going to be the last American President ever because anyone with any faults should stay a private citizen? Which is every single human being of age, ever. Who says what they really wanted from Trump was hush money in the first place? Your saying it's impossible that Stormy, etc, was paid off in some form by a lefty or the media, behind the scenes, to bring this into the public limelight for political reasons? No other possible scenario's?

While not completely out of the question at this point in time, it is unlikely that there is hard evidence against Trump. The good thing for Trump, is that he's The Donald.

Lol, this argument again.  So what fault should we ignore.  The constant cheating or the constant lying until caught or the constant lying even when caught.  Why don't you explain to me as a voter exactly what it is about Trump character I can Trust.  You are right that people make mistakes, what I want to know is why should anyone ever rely on a person who doesn't even have an ounce of integrity to admit even a single mistake, instead of resorting to lying.

I do agree with you that one thing that is a constant in Trump life is telling lies, cheating, breaking deals and telling people what they want to hear.  For his whole life everything he has touched has turned to ash.  You can be proud of being another victim.



NightlyPoe said:
Machiavellian said:

1.  Does not matter if he used his personal money or not.  Its has always been a case of when the payments were made and in what relation to the campaign.  You cannot sit there and say 2 affairs from 2006 was something he was going to pay hush money for before running for Office.  Any payments made to the campaign whether personal, through a corporation you own or do not own or an outside entity is subject to campaign finance laws.  Read up on this part as you are totally wrong on 1 and 2.

You completely missed my point.  Could the money have been paid through the campaign legally?  If not, then it can't be considered a campaign donation.  What I'm basically saying is that it can't be illegal both ways.  Either the legal way to handle it was off the books or on the books.  It can't be neither.

As stated, Cohen lawyer isn't going to have his client plead guilty to something he did not do.  It doesn't make sense.

People plead guilty to things they didn't do every day.  If pleading guilty to this charge would shield his client from facing more serious charges that the they know the prosecutor can nail them on, you darn right Cohen's lawyer will recommend pleading guilty to this lesser charge.  He'd be a bad lawyer if he didn't recommend taking the deal.

No I do not get your first point. He paid money to Daniel from Trump organization and did not report it.   He accepted payment for Karen from AMI which is another contribution he did not report.  We will see if he had knowledge it was reportable but choose not to in order to conceal the payments.

For your second point, you tell me anyone who has pleaded guilty with a lawyer, they paid money for pleading to any crime they did not do.  You forget he pleaded to 8 counts not just the finance charge.  All the other charges would see him in jail for the rest of his life anyway.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

I'm sorry you feel that way. It was his fault for screwing around, if he did. The fact that this case, or any of them, happened before his campaign, and not during his Presidency, unlike some former 'great', 'well respected' American Presidents, leads me to believe this is quite far from a political matter in terms of affairs.

We all assume we know a lot of things. Legal guilt's. So Trump is going to be the last American President ever because anyone with any faults should stay a private citizen? Which is every single human being of age, ever. Who says what they really wanted from Trump was hush money in the first place? Your saying it's impossible that Stormy, etc, was paid off in some form by a lefty or the media, behind the scenes, to bring this into the public limelight for political reasons? No other possible scenario's?

While not completely out of the question at this point in time, it is unlikely that there is hard evidence against Trump. The good thing for Trump, is that he's The Donald.

Lol, this argument again.  So what fault should we ignore.  The constant cheating or the constant lying until caught or the constant lying even when caught.  Why don't you explain to me as a voter exactly what it is about Trump character I can Trust.  You are right that people make mistakes, what I want to know is why should anyone ever rely on a person who doesn't even have an ounce of integrity to admit even a single mistake, instead of resorting to lying.

I do agree with you that one thing that is a constant in Trump life is telling lies, cheating, breaking deals and telling people what they want to hear.  For his whole life everything he has touched has turned to ash.  You can be proud of being another victim.

It's not up to me to convince you of what is right and wrong, I can only show you the door, your the one who has to walk through it. There is no proper answer to this question you pose, considering any individual who follows a political path, is corrupt enough that they shouldn't be given this type of power ever. Yet people go ahead and do it anyway. Trump isn't perfect like the rest of us, but his actions, and not so much his words, lead many to believe he's less corrupt than the other choices that were given, so short of the people refusing to vote, I don't see the problem. 

For some reason people keep agreeing with me, yet what they are agreeing to is nothing related to what I have said. Which makes me realize why they don't understand Trump. Apparently he touched Stormy and she's far from ash, she's being praised.



NightlyPoe said:
Final-Fan said:

So if he had a foreign girlfriend, and broke up with her, ordering a drone strike on her would also not be criminal as long as ordering drone strikes is within his power. 

Murder isn't an inherent power of the presidency.  Someone brought up using the CIA to obstruct the investigation.  That too would be illegal as it's not an inherent power of the presidency.

However, deciding which cases to pursue is an inherent power of the executive.

I presume you said that about the CIA because their mission is supposed to be primarily abroad.  Suppose there was a police investigation Trump was afraid of, and he ordered the FBI to go after all the officers involved? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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