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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's Personal Lawyer And Campaign Manager Both Going To Prison

EricHiggin said:

I can't believe I actually even opened the article since it's based on 'fact checking', LOL, but the fact that there is somebody watching every single thing Trump says and is pointing out any tiny flaw to try and make him look as bad as possible, just solidifies the reason why he became President in the first place.

I missed the part of the article where it talks about what he said that's truthful and how often that occurs... maybe in the fine print? I'm sure it's there somewhere...

JWeinCom said:

Yes... because when determining when someone is lying or not, one of the things we consider is their motivation.  Generally, confessing to serious crimes is not in one's best interest to lie about, so in most (not all) circumstance, I would tend to believe a freely given confession of guilt.  

Good point. Except for the point that he didn't need this position, had no reason to accept it, let alone chase it in the first place, spent millions of his own money to campaign for the  opportunity, and yet if he admitted he lied and should be fired, you think that would obviously mean it's the truth and should be taken as gospel?

Their motivation? So Trump spends millions of his own money and wastes a tonne of his time, losing millions he could be making at his business, to win the position and then screws himself over once it's all his? You should re-think your determination process.


Ummmmmm... yeah.  I think you're agreeing with me?  There is no benefit I can see to him lying, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to lie in this situation.  Isn't that what you just said?



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NightlyPoe said:
Final-Fan said:

It wasn't illegal to fire Comey or do those other things per se, but it was illegal if he did so with corrupt motivation.  Right?  Just checking because "totally in the clear" sends the wrong message to me. 

Not right.  At least as far as criminal charges go.

In that case, I believe you're mistaken.  Quoth a NYT article,

Did Mr. Trump have lawful authority to fire Mr. Comey?

Yes. But courts have ruled that otherwise lawful acts can constitute obstruction of justice if done with corrupt intentions. Mr. Buell pointed to a 1998 case in which a federal appeals court upheld the conviction of a lawyer who had filed legal complaints and related motions against a government agent who was investigating an illegal gambling operation. The court ruled that the defendant’s “nominally litigation-related conduct” was unlawful because his real motive was “to safeguard his personal financial interest” in the corrupt enterprise.

based on

18 U.S. Code § 1512 -

( c ) Whoever corruptly—

(2)otherwise obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so,

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

The main problem is proving that the person in question (Trump in this case) acted with corrupt intent.  So, based on my understanding of this, firing Comey isn't necessarily a violation of this law, but it would be if Trump did it with corrupt motivations. 

Would there be impediments to charging Mr. Trump?

Yes, and not just that the Justice Department reports to Mr. Trump and is therefore unlikely to prosecute him for anything.

Obstruction of justice cases often come down to whether prosecutors can prove what a defendant’s mental state was when he or she committed the act, legal specialists said. It is not enough to show that a defendant knew the act would have a side consequence of impeding an investigation; achieving that obstruction has to have been the specific intention.

Your stated position was that even if Trump fired Comey for corrupt reasons, it still wouldn't be illegal.  I think this is wrong based on a plain reading of the quoted law.  (I think it would be quite ridiculous to claim that Trump did not attempt to "influence" an official proceeding by firing Comey, or even asking him to go easy on Flynn.)  If you still disagree, how do you think I am wrong? 

Last edited by Final-Fan - on 25 August 2018

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JWeinCom said:
EricHiggin said:

I can't believe I actually even opened the article since it's based on 'fact checking', LOL, but the fact that there is somebody watching every single thing Trump says and is pointing out any tiny flaw to try and make him look as bad as possible, just solidifies the reason why he became President in the first place.

I missed the part of the article where it talks about what he said that's truthful and how often that occurs... maybe in the fine print? I'm sure it's there somewhere...

Good point. Except for the point that he didn't need this position, had no reason to accept it, let alone chase it in the first place, spent millions of his own money to campaign for the  opportunity, and yet if he admitted he lied and should be fired, you think that would obviously mean it's the truth and should be taken as gospel?

Their motivation? So Trump spends millions of his own money and wastes a tonne of his time, losing millions he could be making at his business, to win the position and then screws himself over once it's all his? You should re-think your determination process.


Ummmmmm... yeah.  I think you're agreeing with me?  There is no benefit I can see to him lying, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to lie in this situation.  Isn't that what you just said?

"I would tend to believe a freely given confession of guilt."  Isn't that what you said?



EricHiggin said:
JWeinCom said:

Ummmmmm... yeah.  I think you're agreeing with me?  There is no benefit I can see to him lying, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to lie in this situation.  Isn't that what you just said?

"I would tend to believe a freely given confession of guilt."  Isn't that what you said?

No. That's part of what I said.  But you didn't even quote the whole sentence, which makes me seriously question your interest in honest discussion.  



JWeinCom said:
EricHiggin said:

I bet if Trump's words were 'I did it, I'm guilty, and I should be impeached', his words would suddenly be extremely meaningful because they would magically become nothing but truth after years of lie's and everyone on the left would want it used against him.

Yes... because when determining when someone is lying or not, one of the things we consider is their motivation.  Generally, confessing to serious crimes is not in one's best interest to lie about, so in most (not all) circumstance, I would tend to believe a freely given confession of guilt.  

JWeinCom said:
EricHiggin said:

I can't believe I actually even opened the article since it's based on 'fact checking', LOL, but the fact that there is somebody watching every single thing Trump says and is pointing out any tiny flaw to try and make him look as bad as possible, just solidifies the reason why he became President in the first place.

I missed the part of the article where it talks about what he said that's truthful and how often that occurs... maybe in the fine print? I'm sure it's there somewhere...

Good point. Except for the point that he didn't need this position, had no reason to accept it, let alone chase it in the first place, spent millions of his own money to campaign for the  opportunity, and yet if he admitted he lied and should be fired, you think that would obviously mean it's the truth and should be taken as gospel?

Their motivation? So Trump spends millions of his own money and wastes a tonne of his time, losing millions he could be making at his business, to win the position and then screws himself over once it's all his? You should re-think your determination process.

Ummmmmm... yeah.  I think you're agreeing with me?  There is no benefit I can see to him lying, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to lie in this situation.  Isn't that what you just said?

EricHiggin said:
JWeinCom said:

Ummmmmm... yeah.  I think you're agreeing with me?  There is no benefit I can see to him lying, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to lie in this situation.  Isn't that what you just said?

"I would tend to believe a freely given confession of guilt."  Isn't that what you said?

JWeinCom said:
EricHiggin said:

"I would tend to believe a freely given confession of guilt."  Isn't that what you said?

No. That's part of what I said.  But you didn't even quote the whole sentence, which makes me seriously question your interest in honest discussion.  

Better now?



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NightlyPoe said:
Final-Fan said:

Your stated position was that even if Trump fired Comey for corrupt reasons, it still wouldn't be illegal.  I think this is wrong based on a plain reading of the quoted law.  (I think it would be quite ridiculous to claim that Trump did not attempt to "influence" an official proceeding by firing Comey, or even asking him to go easy on Flynn.)  If you still disagree, how do you think I am wrong? 

This goes under inherent powers of the executive.  Was it obstruction when Obama ordered the shielding of whole classes of illegal immigrants for his own political gains shortly before the 2012 election?  No, though it was wrong of him to do so.

I'm open to both being impeachable offenses, but I find the criminal charges to be unpersuasive.

OK, but this is too vague.  What "inherent powers of the executive" make corruptly influencing an official proceeding, which would ordinarily be illegal, not illegal? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

EricHiggin said:
JWeinCom said:

Yes... because when determining when someone is lying or not, one of the things we consider is their motivation.  Generally, confessing to serious crimes is not in one's best interest to lie about, so in most (not all) circumstance, I would tend to believe a freely given confession of guilt.  

JWeinCom said:

Ummmmmm... yeah.  I think you're agreeing with me?  There is no benefit I can see to him lying, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to lie in this situation.  Isn't that what you just said?

EricHiggin said:

"I would tend to believe a freely given confession of guilt."  Isn't that what you said?

JWeinCom said:

No. That's part of what I said.  But you didn't even quote the whole sentence, which makes me seriously question your interest in honest discussion.  

Better now?

The full sentence, where I put qualifiers in front of the part you pulled out, would have been fine.



JWeinCom said:
EricHiggin said:

Better now?

The full sentence, where I put qualifiers in front of the part you pulled out, would have been fine.

You wanted honesty. No point in hiding anything in that case.



EricHiggin said:
JWeinCom said:

The full sentence, where I put qualifiers in front of the part you pulled out, would have been fine.

You wanted honesty. No point in hiding anything in that case.

I wanted relevant details included.  I'm not interested in playing the game you seem to want to play.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt one more time.  Is there a point you want to make?  If so, make it. If not, I'm over it.



JWeinCom said:
EricHiggin said:

You wanted honesty. No point in hiding anything in that case.

I wanted relevant details included.  I'm not interested in playing the game you seem to want to play.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt one more time.  Is there a point you want to make?  If so, make it. If not, I'm over it.

Be careful what you wish for I guess?