Do you see the flaw in your logic? That means every game that came out bare bones should be re-reviewed because of patches. First impressions go along way with critics. It also pressures devs to not release rushed products at launch and fix them later. A review should stick to show the industry that we as gamers wont stand for mediocre products and unfinished games.

GTS is no different to FM5 which copped the exact same criticism. Now unless PD re-release the game like SFV than it might get some attention from some reviewers, but in the face of the industry, the damage has already been done.

Someone defending a game should be reviewed when it changes significantly meaning others that go same route should also be given the same treatment? Sure. Still I didn't demand it to be done. And nope, the reviews haven't done a thing to prevent rushed games in the last decade. Bad sales have done it though.

Still your answer have almost nothing to do with your previous claim.

Poor reviews can affect game sales. PS4 was starved a good racing game since launch, so its sales come in through many means. 

Also sales never determines a products quality. Just because a VW Beetle outsells a Porsche does not make a Beetle a better car. If we are comparing the lowest rated Sim Racer with the Best rated Sim racer than you will find why reviewers are giving these scores. 

Do yourself a favor, go watch or read a FM5 review, it will sound very familiar.

Umm games don't have to sell 10m+ to make another game irrelevant. The fact there are 5 other better car racing games on the market makes GTS a hard sell. GTS launched as a disaster so its sales were hit hard, not because of other games released at the time.

GTS still doesn't sound better than Forza 7, both games have gone in different directions with the sound. And id still prefer FM7s. Maybe that's just our preference on that.

You don't think Turn 10 is Industry leading? Well lets look at the bigger picture. FM7 is a better package than any other car racing game on the market, heck even FM5 is a better package than GTS and that was a launch X1 game 4 years ago, FM has received the best scores across the board this gen when it comes to car racing. For the past 4 years, a Forza title has taken home the best car RGOTY awards. Might as well argue with the awards and critics, not just me. 

Sales does not, and never leads to a quality product. There are a lot of avenues to sales. Drive Club went on to sell 2m+ units, and that company folded shortly after. PS4 also has double the user base and GTS was also sold at a very cheap launch price.

You talk up GTS for its HDR etc well than lets talk about FM7 running at a pure 4k on the X right with HDR? GTS does not look leaps and bounds better either, you would barely notice a difference in the graphics especially if you are running FM7 on the X. 

So tell me where does GTS hold the crown?

Best Simulator goes to PC2

Best Car Package goes to FM7

Everything you mention as positives about GTS has been done before or better in PC2 or FM7. GTS also has the worst crash damage on there car models. and the least amount of content and features. You know you have done something wrong when your game releases with less content than FM5 a 4 year old title.

First of all, GT6  had 350 premiums, not 450. 

Forza 7 lootboxes were never purchaseable by real money, so they werent making a single cent of it. Actually, the game doesnt have any microtransactions what so ever. So it's not possible for the crates to be bad business practices. Now c'mon, almost every single game has paid dlc (even project cars 2).

And Forza 7 is probably way ahead of assetto corsa in sales. You are overestimating Assetto Corsa sales. GT Sport is saved by the fact that Playstation rules Europe, or else Forza would've pulled even (or even taken over) a while ago.

Forza isn't supposed to be a full simulation, it's supposed to be welcome to new players. Same with GT Sport. Both are simcade games.

And that last part is blatantly false. Forza 6/7 are regarded as some of the best racing games of this generation in the media (probably only behind the Horizon games). GT Sport doesn't make a scratch on them.

GTS will reach 5M, it may be unfair perhaps, but PC2+AC that sells less than 1M doesn't make another game go from 15 to 5.

So these other 5 games show that GTS is terrible but they don't sell? A customer thinks like... well I wanted to buy GTS but since FM7 is better I won't buy any of them? Same for PC and AC?

I can't even say you miss logic, because that would be saying you were at least trying.

If customers though any of those 5 games were better than GTS they would have bought them at least in some considerable numbers. Sure none would need to push 10M alone, but to have all of them together sell less than GTS and all combined still much lower than previous numbers certainly show that your explanation is lacking.

PC1 was very bad in simulation, I all about finished and was close to platinum when I got bored, and I know a lot of people got burned by it and didn't try PC2 (see the sales). AC sales are almost neglible. So nope, GT sales have much more to do with simulation genre losing sales and GT own decisions than supposely better games taking the space.

Yes yes yes,,, sure sure sure... all because of Europe. How much did Forza series sold previous gen when X360 had sales close to PS3 in Europe?

Sure poor reviews can affect sales. Still that haven't prevented rushed games, EA, Ubi, MS, Sony, Activision and several others keep rushing some games and we see a lot of day 1 patches. Some of those that have the same size of the game itself.

And there is a very big difference between rushed games that need patches to work as intended and making a game that is intended to keep evolving and adding value.

Sure sales doesn't determine quality. Now reread what I said. But for the customers that have two options in the same category (which excludes your exaggerated bettle vs porsche comparison) and also similarly priced, they choose what they see more value (and perhaps quality) for them. So although more sales doesn't determine quality it certainly determines leading, and also value for the customers.

Seems like you lack comprehension skills. Go read what I said about GT Sport leading in Vision GT cars, better physics than Forza 7, unique tracks, best HDR and Wide Colour visuals.

As for your "better package", GT 6 is a way better package than Forza 7. Its leading absolutely nowhere apart from critic scores, which are far less important than the things that really matter in a sim racer.

Forza Motorsport 7 is basically the poorest simulator of real world physics in the sim racing genre, behind GT Sport and far behind PC2, Assetto Corsa and RFactor. It doesn't have good business practices either, with paid DLCs and lootboxes for such a long period when the game is at its most relevant. Its behind GT Sport, Assetto Corsa Competizione and PC2 in graphics and sound. Its behind GT Sport and probably Assetto Corsa in sales.

Where is the industry leading part? Maybe in critical success, but its perception in the gaming media hardly makes for an industry leading game when its behind the competition in every other way that counts.

GT6 had 450 if I'm not mistaken, with the updates, all of which were free.

Games might be doing paid DLCs but GT Sport doesn't. That makes its DLC more consumer friendly than Forza and PC2 DLCs.

You're right on Assetto Corsa, I though it would be higher since its got a populated community and has been available for a while.

Its a huge assumption that GT sells simply based on PlayStation's dominance in Europe, where I could say Forza Motorsport sells simply because its the only sim racer that can be decently played with  a controller on Xbox. See how that works? Its like you refuse to acknowledge that people just like GT more, and that's for a variety of reasons.

Sure both Forza and GT are entry sim racers but GT Sport has better physics than Forza 7, and that's even more apparent with a wheel.

I said the same, Forza 6 and 7 have good critical reception, but are behind the competition in the stuff that matters. Physics, sounds, visuals, online are far inferior in Forza. Any dude with an English degree can review a game, doesn't make their review worth crap.

Forza 7 is behind the competition in every damn way except car counts. That too, only when considering this gen, as last gen there was a sim racer with more cars and tracks, which while behind in visuals still stacks up superior to Forza 7 in physics. Its funny, when GT 6 had the edge in cars and tracks Forza fans were like car counts don't matter. Now its the opposite, suddenly they are all that matters. Hilarious.

I don't think they'll get rid of their delusions. Ofc GT can't sell more than Forza because its better, no no no Forza just doesn't get the sales it deserves, my dear Forza :(

1) After doing a final check, GT6 had 3888 premium cars after dlc. So basically a negligible difference between it and for 3.

2) The game should be praised for launching devoid of content, and then dripfeeding us that content that should've been there launch. It was launched unfinished. This is Sea of Theives all over again, except now it's okay because it's Sony and gran turismo?

3) Yeah, Assetto can probably beat forza 7 over time, but only because a new forza game launches every year, cutting the legs of the last one significantly.

3) No, your example doesn't make sense when ps only has one-two good sims on its console as well. Also, it's not a assumption, stats show most GT sales for GT come from Europe. So it's obvious that ps being a huge in Europe is a primary factor for it doing so well. Infact, GT sport bombed in North America. It was 11th in its debut NPD, and has not been seen ever since. The price dipped to $20 not much after launch.

4) Why would you make this thread if the only answer you would take was "reviewers and mainstream media is stupid"? If you already know the answer yourself and are sure you won't change your mind, why make this thread? If your mindset is "GT could do no wrong" than why bother? 

5) No one said Forza 5 is fine. It was bashed by everyone, even Forza fans. And it's not just the cars and tracks, it's the campaign mode. GT quickly put one in, and it's decent for a knee jerk reaction, but it doesn't come close to Forza or past GT games. GT6 has many other flaws that put it behind the Forza games. GT physics might be better, but it's not like Forza physics are a slouch or something. Same goes for graphics.

6) and that's when you know you've lost the argument, when you start jabbing at the person instead of the opinion.

2) I shall ask the reverse... I smell that some people here criticizing GT for adding more to a initial lighter release where defending SoT because it's GAAS. I certainly understand why PD have done, but it doesn't please me even if in the end there were enough content to make me happy even having paid full price.

3) Already proved to you this point, want to go back to it? Forza in X360 sold much much worse than GT5 and even GT6, while not being very far in sales from PS3 in Europe. Won't deny that Europe is the major market, but again attach ratio is so small that saying the difference is because there isn't enough X1 in Europe isn't true.

5) For me a simulator is all about physics, and the graphics of GT is the ice on the cake. Neither have real close to life car sound and professional drive is done with pristine cars, any damage make you either forfeit or pit so demanding collision and damage is almost pointless and can even make game worse. I can understand some like the option to put decals, change rim and other cosmetic Forza offers, but the core on GT is better than Forza. The down point this version besides quantity of cars and lack of career (although it had plenty time for SP game) is the lack of tunning, but that is understandable because of the e-sport focus (even if I think a good pilot also knows how to set his car, but e-sport is much about everyone having leveled playing field).

I also find it funny. I just dont understand how some people wont accept that a high profile game recieved bad reviews and will stick up for it no matter what and demand justice and full on investigations as to why.. even though this gen has been very stricked on games lacking the basics. Than calling other people out when majority even say FM5 received the similar criticism and agree with all of it.

But no.. can't do that to a PS game especially GT, its a 10/10 RGOTY. It is superior to everything on the market because.. because of sales.

I really dont know anymore. I just scratch my head confused.

Seems like you lack comprehension skills. Go read what I said about GT Sport leading in Vision GT cars, better physics than Forza 7, unique tracks, best HDR and Wide Colour visuals.

As for your "better package", GT 6 is a way better package than Forza 7. Its leading absolutely nowhere apart from critic scores, which are far less important than the things that really matter in a sim racer.

Forza Motorsport 7 is basically the poorest simulator of real world physics in the sim racing genre, behind GT Sport and far behind PC2, Assetto Corsa and RFactor. It doesn't have good business practices either, with paid DLCs and lootboxes for such a long period when the game is at its most relevant. Its behind GT Sport, Assetto Corsa Competizione and PC2 in graphics and sound. Its behind GT Sport and probably Assetto Corsa in sales.

Where is the industry leading part? Maybe in critical success, but its perception in the gaming media hardly makes for an industry leading game when its behind the competition in every other way that counts.

GT6 had 450 if I'm not mistaken, with the updates, all of which were free.

Games might be doing paid DLCs but GT Sport doesn't. That makes its DLC more consumer friendly than Forza and PC2 DLCs.

You're right on Assetto Corsa, I though it would be higher since its got a populated community and has been available for a while.

Its a huge assumption that GT sells simply based on PlayStation's dominance in Europe, where I could say Forza Motorsport sells simply because its the only sim racer that can be decently played with  a controller on Xbox. See how that works? Its like you refuse to acknowledge that people just like GT more, and that's for a variety of reasons.

Sure both Forza and GT are entry sim racers but GT Sport has better physics than Forza 7, and that's even more apparent with a wheel.

I said the same, Forza 6 and 7 have good critical reception, but are behind the competition in the stuff that matters. Physics, sounds, visuals, online are far inferior in Forza. Any dude with an English degree can review a game, doesn't make their review worth crap.

Forza 7 is behind the competition in every damn way except car counts. That too, only when considering this gen, as last gen there was a sim racer with more cars and tracks, which while behind in visuals still stacks up superior to Forza 7 in physics. Its funny, when GT 6 had the edge in cars and tracks Forza fans were like car counts don't matter. Now its the opposite, suddenly they are all that matters. Hilarious.

I don't think they'll get rid of their delusions. Ofc GT can't sell more than Forza because its better, no no no Forza just doesn't get the sales it deserves, my dear Forza :(

I also find it funny. I just dont understand how some people wont accept that a high profile game recieved bad reviews and will stick up for it no matter what and demand justice and full on investigations as to why.. even though this gen has been very stricked on games lacking the basics. Than calling other people out when majority even say FM5 received the similar criticism and agree with all of it.

But no.. can't do that to a PS game especially GT, its a 10/10 RGOTY. It is superior to everything on the market because.. because of sales.

I really dont know anymore. I just scratch my head confused.

I'll try to help you once again.

People who stick with GT "no matter what" is because they still like to play the game on its current release, simple as that. And their demand for better reviews is that it have one that reflects what the game propose to do and in it the game excels, instead of what the reviewer would like the game to be.

1) After doing a final check, GT6 had 3888 premium cars after dlc. So basically a negligible difference between it and for 3.

2) The game should be praised for launching devoid of content, and then dripfeeding us that content that should've been there launch. It was launched unfinished. This is Sea of Theives all over again, except now it's okay because it's Sony and gran turismo?

3) Yeah, Assetto can probably beat forza 7 over time, but only because a new forza game launches every year, cutting the legs of the last one significantly.

3) No, your example doesn't make sense when ps only has one-two good sims on its console as well. Also, it's not a assumption, stats show most GT sales for GT come from Europe. So it's obvious that ps being a huge in Europe is a primary factor for it doing so well. Infact, GT sport bombed in North America. It was 11th in its debut NPD, and has not been seen ever since. The price dipped to $20 not much after launch.

4) Why would you make this thread if the only answer you would take was "reviewers and mainstream media is stupid"? If you already know the answer yourself and are sure you won't change your mind, why make this thread? If your mindset is "GT could do no wrong" than why bother? 

5) No one said Forza 5 is fine. It was bashed by everyone, even Forza fans. And it's not just the cars and tracks, it's the campaign mode. GT quickly put one in, and it's decent for a knee jerk reaction, but it doesn't come close to Forza or past GT games. GT6 has many other flaws that put it behind the Forza games. GT physics might be better, but it's not like Forza physics are a slouch or something. Same goes for graphics.

6) and that's when you know you've lost the argument, when you start jabbing at the person instead of the opinion.