Wow Don you still amaze me. GTS didn't sell well because it lacks as a quality racer. Sure its Simulation is good but so is PC2 which does everything plus more than GTS, a game that wasn't around when GT was in its prime. Maybe they didn't buy the other games but that doesn't excuse the fact this game's launch was a disaster. Forza never really sold great numbers and it doesn't have to plus GT is on a user base more than double the X1s, but I love how you ignore that fact and also ignore the fact GTS was sold at dirt cheap prices at launch. 

I laugh every time you say Xbox isn't successful.. I mean I guess there announcements of adding 5 new studios and continue to make Xbox consoles must be all for losing money. MS just know how to lose money don't they ;)

Also as it stands the highest rated racing games this gen goes to FM6 and FH3 and soon to be FH4. Sounds like a market leader to me. But keep thinking otherwise. GTS is the lowest reviewed racing game this gen aside from DriveClub. Theres a reason why it has gotten its reviews.

So if you want to question the market leaders well lets look at it like this, in a rank from highest scores.

#1 Forza Horizon 3 (91)

#2 Forza Motorsport 6 (87)

#3 Forza Motorsport 7 (86)

#4 Forza Horizon 2 (86)

#5 Assetto Corsa (85)

#6 Project Cars (82)

#7 Forza Motorsport 5 (79) <4 year old launch title

#8 Gran Turismo Sport (75)

#9 DriveClub (71)

Who's the market leader again?

DonFerrari said:

 I'm saying that if we have Fifa, CoD and other very big games launching together with your game they will impact the sales. It have happened every single time.

Not making excuses, anyone on here would be able to explain to you this very simple concept.

Please show me how PC2 and AC selling less than 1M combined on PS4 made GT go from 15M on GT3 to 5M on GTS.

GOWTLOZ said:

 Woah woah woah. Were you following our discussion at all? I never said the old GT games sounded good, they were terrible. GT Sport does sound better than Forza, which isn't terrible but the sound effects in Forza are blown to unrealistic proportions which sounds nice but isn't accurate. 

GT Sport offers better physics, sounds, some unique tracks, Vision GT cars, a Red Bull prototype and the best HDR and Wide Colour visuals that are there on the market.

Its also unfair the compare GT 3 lifetime sales to GT Sport's current sales which by the way are less than 5m not at 5m. Perhaps even 4m. Still bigger than most of its competition.

GT6 has 450 premium cars. More cars than Forza 3 had.

You're right on the PSP cars, some were new to the series on PSP which had 820 cars and some of those like the Bugatti Veyron were the basic designs of the GT5 and GT6 versions. But standard cars got an overhaul in GT6 and look better than GT5 standard cars.

Woah woah woah. Were you following our discussion at all? I never said the old GT games sounded good, they were terrible. GT Sport does sound better than Forza, which isn't terrible but the sound effects in Forza are blown to unrealistic proportions which sounds nice but isn't accurate.

Your second point is a misunderstanding of what I said. I said that GT is declining in popularity but also other Sony games are growing in popularity which has allowed GT to be relegated to a mid tier series. Sony never had the huge successes outside of GT series before this gen, and when they did they were mostly one offs like LBP which centered around the premise of creation so it could never stay relevant for a lot of sequels. Uncharted, TLOU, Horizon and GOW are going to stay relevant and for a longer time. The increased popularity of RPG's has factored in the success of some of these games. Its also real that the racing game market is declining. Racing games are barely relevant in the USA and Japan, and mostly sell in Europe and PAL regions which isn't enough for them to be blockbusters.

Industry leading Turn 10? Hahaha. Forza Motorsport 7 is basically the poorest simulator of real world physics in the sim racing genre, behind GT Sport and far behind PC2, Assetto Corsa and RFactor. It doesn't have good business practices either, with paid DLCs and lootboxes for such a long period when the game is at its most relevant. Its behind GT Sport, Assetto Corsa Competizione and PC2 in graphics and sound. Its behind GT Sport and probably Assetto Corsa in sales. Where is the industry leading part? Maybe in critical success, but its perception in the gaming media hardly makes for an industry leading game when its behind the competition in every other way that counts.

GT6 has 450 premium cars. More cars than Forza 3 had.

You're right on the PSP cars, some were new to the series on PSP which had 820 cars and some of those like the Bugatti Veyron were the basic designs of the GT5 and GT6 versions. But standard cars got an overhaul in GT6 and look better than GT5 standard cars.

Woah woah woah. Were you following our discussion at all? I never said the old GT games sounded good, they were terrible. GT Sport does sound better than Forza, which isn't terrible but the sound effects in Forza are blown to unrealistic proportions which sounds nice but isn't accurate.

Your second point is a misunderstanding of what I said. I said that GT is declining in popularity but also other Sony games are growing in popularity which has allowed GT to be relegated to a mid tier series. Sony never had the huge successes outside of GT series before this gen, and when they did they were mostly one offs like LBP which centered around the premise of creation so it could never stay relevant for a lot of sequels. Uncharted, TLOU, Horizon and GOW are going to stay relevant and for a longer time. The increased popularity of RPG's has factored in the success of some of these games. Its also real that the racing game market is declining. Racing games are barely relevant in the USA and Japan, and mostly sell in Europe and PAL regions which isn't enough for them to be blockbusters.

Industry leading Turn 10? Hahaha. Forza Motorsport 7 is basically the poorest simulator of real world physics in the sim racing genre, behind GT Sport and far behind PC2, Assetto Corsa and RFactor. It doesn't have good business practices either, with paid DLCs and lootboxes for such a long period when the game is at its most relevant. Its behind GT Sport, Assetto Corsa Competizione and PC2 in graphics and sound. Its behind GT Sport and probably Assetto Corsa in sales. Where is the industry leading part? Maybe in critical success, but its perception in the gaming media hardly makes for an industry leading game when its behind the competition in every other way that counts.

To Azzanation, GT Sport offers better physics, sounds, some unique tracks, Vision GT cars, a Red Bull prototype and the best HDR and Wide Colour visuals that are there on the market.

Its also unfair the compare GT 3 lifetime sales to GT Sport's current sales which by the way are less than 5m not at 5m. Perhaps even 4m. Still bigger than most of its competition.

Umm games don't have to sell 10m+ to make another game irrelevant. The fact there are 5 other better car racing games on the market makes GTS a hard sell. GTS launched as a disaster so its sales were hit hard, not because of other games released at the time.

GTS still doesn't sound better than Forza 7, both games have gone in different directions with the sound. And id still prefer FM7s. Maybe that's just our preference on that.

You don't think Turn 10 is Industry leading? Well lets look at the bigger picture. FM7 is a better package than any other car racing game on the market, heck even FM5 is a better package than GTS and that was a launch X1 game 4 years ago, FM has received the best scores across the board this gen when it comes to car racing. For the past 4 years, a Forza title has taken home the best car RGOTY awards. Might as well argue with the awards and critics, not just me. 

Sales does not, and never leads to a quality product. There are a lot of avenues to sales. Drive Club went on to sell 2m+ units, and that company folded shortly after. PS4 also has double the user base and GTS was also sold at a very cheap launch price.

You talk up GTS for its HDR etc well than lets talk about FM7 running at a pure 4k on the X right with HDR? GTS does not look leaps and bounds better either, you would barely notice a difference in the graphics especially if you are running FM7 on the X. 

So tell me where does GTS hold the crown?

Best Simulator goes to PC2

Best Car Package goes to FM7

Everything you mention as positives about GTS has been done before or better in PC2 or FM7. GTS also has the worst crash damage on there car models. and the least amount of content and features. You know you have done something wrong when your game releases with less content than FM5 a 4 year old title.

First of all, GT6  had 350 premiums, not 450. 

Forza 7 lootboxes were never purchaseable by real money, so they werent making a single cent of it. Actually, the game doesnt have any microtransactions what so ever. So it's not possible for the crates to be bad business practices. Now c'mon, almost every single game has paid dlc (even project cars 2).

And Forza 7 is probably way ahead of assetto corsa in sales. You are overestimating Assetto Corsa sales. GT Sport is saved by the fact that Playstation rules Europe, or else Forza would've pulled even (or even taken over) a while ago.

Forza isn't supposed to be a full simulation, it's supposed to be welcome to new players. Same with GT Sport. Both are simcade games.

And that last part is blatantly false. Forza 6/7 are regarded as some of the best racing games of this generation in the media (probably only behind the Horizon games). GT Sport doesn't make a scratch on them.

X360 sold about same as PS3, that didn't made FM sell more than GT. But surely FM sold more at the time. You fail so hard on the userbase comparison and keep doing it. A game that sells 2M on a 30M userbase wouldn't really sell 5M on 80M userbase. Tie Ratio isn't nearly linear as you think.

Go look at the thread of Multiplats of PS4 X1 and Switch. And you'll see that some games have about 50/50 between PS4 and Switch even with over 4x difference in userbase. Others will have Switch in front, others will have PS4 much more than the userbase would explain.

If the game sold like 40-60% attach ratio I could certainly agree that userbase was a limitatot. But when it sell under 10% attach ratio it is hardly an excuse.

GTS launched at 60USD and big part of the sales were full priced. Sure it had fast price cut but that wasn't launch price "dirty cheap". But still doesn't explain how all the bundling of FM this gen never helped it have big numbers.

Don't worry about your laughs. You never fail to show you can't even prove any of your arguments to the end. Have you found how many Gold accounts are among those XBL numbers MS announced? Or do you still think XBL Total being a little higher than PS+ only is some kind of achievement?

High scores doesn't show any lead. Or does when counting total sales of consoles or games the critic evaluation transform those numbers and make xbox win?

Umm games don't have to sell 10m+ to make another game irrelevant. The fact there are 5 other better car racing games on the market makes GTS a hard sell. GTS launched as a disaster so its sales were hit hard, not because of other games released at the time.

GTS still doesn't sound better than Forza 7, both games have gone in different directions with the sound. And id still prefer FM7s. Maybe that's just our preference on that.

You don't think Turn 10 is Industry leading? Well lets look at the bigger picture. FM7 is a better package than any other car racing game on the market, heck even FM5 is a better package than GTS and that was a launch X1 game 4 years ago, FM has received the best scores across the board this gen when it comes to car racing. For the past 4 years, a Forza title has taken home the best car RGOTY awards. Might as well argue with the awards and critics, not just me. 

Sales does not, and never leads to a quality product. There are a lot of avenues to sales. Drive Club went on to sell 2m+ units, and that company folded shortly after. PS4 also has double the user base and GTS was also sold at a very cheap launch price.

You talk up GTS for its HDR etc well than lets talk about FM7 running at a pure 4k on the X right with HDR? GTS does not look leaps and bounds better either, you would barely notice a difference in the graphics especially if you are running FM7 on the X. 

So tell me where does GTS hold the crown?

Best Simulator goes to PC2

Best Car Package goes to FM7

Everything you mention as positives about GTS has been done before or better in PC2 or FM7. GTS also has the worst crash damage on there car models. and the least amount of content and features. You know you have done something wrong when your game releases with less content than FM5 a 4 year old title.

First of all, GT6  had 350 premiums, not 450. 

Forza 7 lootboxes were never purchaseable by real money, so they werent making a single cent of it. Actually, the game doesnt have any microtransactions what so ever. So it's not possible for the crates to be bad business practices. Now c'mon, almost every single game has paid dlc (even project cars 2).

And Forza 7 is probably way ahead of assetto corsa in sales. You are overestimating Assetto Corsa sales. GT Sport is saved by the fact that Playstation rules Europe, or else Forza would've pulled even (or even taken over) a while ago.

Forza isn't supposed to be a full simulation, it's supposed to be welcome to new players. Same with GT Sport. Both are simcade games.

And that last part is blatantly false. Forza 6/7 are regarded as some of the best racing games of this generation in the media (probably only behind the Horizon games). GT Sport doesn't make a scratch on them.

GTS will reach 5M, it may be unfair perhaps, but PC2+AC that sells less than 1M doesn't make another game go from 15 to 5.

So these other 5 games show that GTS is terrible but they don't sell? A customer thinks like... well I wanted to buy GTS but since FM7 is better I won't buy any of them? Same for PC and AC?

I can't even say you miss logic, because that would be saying you were at least trying.

If customers though any of those 5 games were better than GTS they would have bought them at least in some considerable numbers. Sure none would need to push 10M alone, but to have all of them together sell less than GTS and all combined still much lower than previous numbers certainly show that your explanation is lacking.

PC1 was very bad in simulation, I all about finished and was close to platinum when I got bored, and I know a lot of people got burned by it and didn't try PC2 (see the sales). AC sales are almost neglible. So nope, GT sales have much more to do with simulation genre losing sales and GT own decisions than supposely better games taking the space.

Yes yes yes,,, sure sure sure... all because of Europe. How much did Forza series sold previous gen when X360 had sales close to PS3 in Europe?

I'll try to help you once again.

People who stick with GT "no matter what" is because they still like to play the game on its current release, simple as that. And their demand for better reviews is that it have one that reflects what the game propose to do and in it the game excels, instead of what the reviewer would like the game to be.