Forums - General Discussion - I'm tired of this overemphasis on diversity spilling into our entertainment.

All I see is a bunch of people complaining about a change in the status quo. How is the inclusion of a black or female character pandering but the inclusion of a white guy isn't? Or better yet how can you assume that there isn't equally as much done to pander to straight male audiences.



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collint0101 said:
All I see is a bunch of people complaining about a change in the status quo. How is the inclusion of a black or female character pandering but the inclusion of a white guy isn't? Or better yet how can you assume that there isn't equally as much done to pander to straight male audiences.

People are mad for different reasons. Personally, I strongly dislike altering existing and established characters (such as Domino in Deadpool 2, or Johnny Storm in Fantastic Four). It's not always bad, but more often than not it's shameless pandering (a good example of it working would be Nick Fury, though he is based on Ultimate Nick Fury from the Ultimate Marvel line, so he's got precedence).



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Azuren said:

The difference is your argument predicates persecution against over-represented identities under the hard left assumption that you can't persecute white straight cis males. Mine is "all persecution is bad". So you can think you're right all you'd like: you're still the one advocating for persecution. I bet you also think Affirmative Action is a good thing.

 

Were people upset, or weren't they? Was the movie good because they made Domino black? Would it have been worse if they had an equally talented white woman play the white character? Do you feel somehow justified that leftist sites liked the blackwashing just as much as the movie itself? 

Didnt I say we arent gonna convince each other? But sure, let's do this I guess. The difference is I think I'm right and you think you're right. A wise man once said "Don't pretend it's more complicated than that."

I'd love to live in a post-discrimination society that allows me to agree with you, beleive me. The Affirmative Action point (I really did guess corectly it would be brought up eventually) just makes me wanna do this even less. In a society in which racial discrimination has never happened, it would be bad. In reality, it isnt. Because minorites not getting equal standing in education is not organic, or natural. And here I am just reiterating my original point that you're looking at this with zero context and history, and looking at any social issue that way is pretty much completely meaningless. Anyways, I'm gonna skip the waste that explaining further would lead to since I dont wanna and just post this.

 

Shifting points in that last part there, but you arent gonna get me that easily, my point was that the biggest problem with ghostbusters was it was poorly made, not the gender change. I countered that by showing a film where the change wasnt universally panned because people liked it. I dont need to start defending points I didnt make here. And like I said, people are going to stop making a big deal about racially diverse media once we are in that idealistic post-discrimination society.



 

I keep saying I dont wanna do this but It dawned on me that I think I'm enjoying this actually, debate is refreshing. Still pointless in the end though but it's still nice.



 

Azuren said:
collint0101 said:
All I see is a bunch of people complaining about a change in the status quo. How is the inclusion of a black or female character pandering but the inclusion of a white guy isn't? Or better yet how can you assume that there isn't equally as much done to pander to straight male audiences.

People are mad for different reasons. Personally, I strongly dislike altering existing and established characters (such as Domino in Deadpool 2, or Johnny Storm in Fantastic Four). It's not always bad, but more often than not it's shameless pandering (a good example of it working would be Nick Fury, though he is based on Ultimate Nick Fury from the Ultimate Marvel line, so he's got precedence).

Johnny storm was like 13 when he first went into space but I haven't heard anyone complain about that. I don't take comic book fans seriously because they only seem to care whenever a change involves race. Changing literally everything about civil war except for captain america punching iron Man is fine and dandy but Valkyrie is played by a brown chick and all hell breaks loose. If that doesn't scream double standard then I don't know what does.



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Smear-Gel said:
Azuren said:

The difference is your argument predicates persecution against over-represented identities under the hard left assumption that you can't persecute white straight cis males. Mine is "all persecution is bad". So you can think you're right all you'd like: you're still the one advocating for persecution. I bet you also think Affirmative Action is a good thing.

 

Were people upset, or weren't they? Was the movie good because they made Domino black? Would it have been worse if they had an equally talented white woman play the white character? Do you feel somehow justified that leftist sites liked the blackwashing just as much as the movie itself? 

Didnt I say we arent gonna convince each other? But sure, let's do this I guess. The difference is I think I'm right and you think you're right. A wise man once said "Don't pretend it's more complicated than that."

I'd love to live in a post-discrimination society that allows me to agree with you, beleive me. The Affirmative Action point (I really did guess corectly it would be brought up eventually) just makes me wanna do this even less. In a society in which racial discrimination has never happened, it would be bad. In reality, it isnt. Because minorites not getting equal standing in education is not organic, or natural. And here I am just reiterating my original point that you're looking at this with zero context and history, and looking at any social issue that way is pretty much completely meaningless. Anyways, I'm gonna skip the waste that explaining further would lead to since I dont wanna and just post this.

 

Shifting points in that last part there, but you arent gonna get me that easily, my point was that the biggest problem with ghostbusters was it was poorly made, not the gender change. I countered that by showing a film where the change wasnt universally panned because people liked it. I dont need to start defending points I didnt make here. And like I said, people are going to stop making a big deal about racially diverse media once we are in that idealistic post-discrimination society.

You did. And then you kept asserting that discrimination based on things people can't change is okay, which is bigotry. So how am I supposed to walk away from bigotry claiming to be in the right?

 

We live in about as much of a post-discrimination society as it's going to get. Lines are never going to vanish, because that's just how some people are. But to blanket entire communities and ethnicities with general statements won't help. Assuming that every black man is ironically the short person in your visual aid is soft bigotry, and assuming every white man is the tall one is also a form of bigotry. Everyone has different places they come from. A black kid in Orange county is not worse off than a white kid in Cincinnati. You wanna talk to me about context and history, and then you imply that all black people need help while white people deserve persecution for the color of their skin? So please: continue with the bigoted comments. Maybe post a few more pictures that explain this flawed world view. But maybe one day you'll open your eyes and realize that "holy shit, blaming and persecuting the ancestors of persecutors only perpetuates persecution."

 

And yeah, you kind of walked yourself into a minefield. I already said that the shit comedy played a role in the Ghostbusters movie sucking. Then you proceeded to walk your ideology off of a cliff without realizing. So please, pick a question to answer. Doesn't have to be all of them, I'd just like to see leftist rhetoric collapse under the weight of its own bullshit.

Last edited by Azuren - on 22 May 2018

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collint0101 said:
Azuren said:

People are mad for different reasons. Personally, I strongly dislike altering existing and established characters (such as Domino in Deadpool 2, or Johnny Storm in Fantastic Four). It's not always bad, but more often than not it's shameless pandering (a good example of it working would be Nick Fury, though he is based on Ultimate Nick Fury from the Ultimate Marvel line, so he's got precedence).

Johnny storm was like 13 when he first went into space but I haven't heard anyone complain about that. I don't take comic book fans seriously because they only seem to care whenever a change involves race. Changing literally everything about civil war except for captain america punching iron Man is fine and dandy but Valkyrie is played by a brown chick and all hell breaks loose. If that doesn't scream double standard then I don't know what does.

And there wouldn't be a double standard in your case if they made Falcon white, right?

 

Changing age isn't a big deal, since most instance of FF take place during Johnny being an adult, meaning making the movie with a kid would have thrown off the general population who know adult Johnny from the cartoon and comics. Civil War changed in its entirety because Fox owned the mutants, who were a HUGE point of contention and practically the point of Civil War.

 

But do you have any instances of this double standard that aren't super easily debunked?



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Well it looks like things are going your way...

 

Major Studios Released a Historically Low Amount of LGBTQ-Inclusive Films in 2017 — Report

Just 14 titles included identifiably lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or queer characters, tied for the lowest total since GLAAD began tracking the stats in 2012.

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/05/studios-lgbtq-films-2017-report-glaad-1201967430/

 

 

Happy now?



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DonFerrari said:
PortisheadBiscuit said:
Oh boo hoo, not everything is hetero/white male centric anymore. Who cares? Entertainment is entertainment. If you allow the race, sex, creed, age etc; affect your perception of said entertainment, sounds like a YOU problem

Seems like you didn't read the topic... and also if no one cares then why is it being made? And personal attacks for what reason? Are you going to accuse me of being advocate?

Personal attack? Definitely a stretch

"Who cares" can be used as an idiom, I OBVIOUSLY wasn't using it in a literal sense. 

 



Azuren said:
collint0101 said:

Johnny storm was like 13 when he first went into space but I haven't heard anyone complain about that. I don't take comic book fans seriously because they only seem to care whenever a change involves race. Changing literally everything about civil war except for captain america punching iron Man is fine and dandy but Valkyrie is played by a brown chick and all hell breaks loose. If that doesn't scream double standard then I don't know what does.

And there wouldn't be a double standard in your case if they made Falcon white, right?

 

Changing age isn't a big deal, since most instance of FF take place during Johnny being an adult, meaning making the movie with a kid would have thrown off the general population who know adult Johnny from the cartoon and comics. Civil War changed in its entirety because Fox owned the mutants, who were a HUGE point of contention and practically the point of Civil War.

 

But do you have any instances of this double standard that aren't super easily debunked?

Spiderman wasn't 15 during civil war, planet hulk didn't feature Thor, captain America was supposed to die at the end of civil war ect but I'm sure you're going to twist yourselve in knots trying to justify why all of those changes are fine but making a minor characters like Ben Urich black is the end of the world.