Forums - Politics Discussion - Another Day in the US

JRPGfan said:
deskpro2k3 said:

It is waaaaaaayyyy to early to talk about gun control.

thoughts and prayers is ok though.

If therse 10 kids dead and a couple of teachers..... no offense but what good is "thoughts and prayers" gonna do for the dead?

It seems like every month in the USA theres another episode like this.
At some point something had to be done about the gun issue in the US.... youd think? right?

He was being sarcastic. The phrase has become infamous because of its constant use in situations like these.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_and_prayers



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Aeolus451 said:

You're exaggerating to the point of strawmanning especially with your numbers. Limit the entrances in a school to 1 or 2 and equip them with metal detectors and use a few young/healthy ex-military with more than side-arms with metal detectors. Make every school a hard target.

Banning guns is off the table. We already have common sense gun laws. There's not alot of practical solutions or easy solutions. We're gonna have to refine what's there already.

And place a minfield on the schoolyard and give each student a map to memorize. That will limit the number of potential shooters to students who go to the same school.

As for "we already have common sense gunlaws" you have the most insane and lax gunlaws of any first world country.
There is no common sense in restricting background checks when 97% of the population wants universal background checks. http://theweek.com/speedreads/756459/97-percent-americans-want-universal-background-checks-gun-buyers-67-percent-want-ban-assault-weapons
There is no common sense that you require no safety training to own a firearm when 495 people died in the US in 2016 from just accidentally discharging a firearm. https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths-statistics

495 people! To put into perspective, it would take about 55 years for Japan to have as many gun related deaths in total (including suicide, homicide, police shootings and accidents) if Japan had the same population as USA. (They have about 30% of the US population.)
And just for the record, USA had 33,599 gun related deaths in total that year. (Although most were suicides. But the homicide rate is still astronomical.)

And there is no common sense in gun laws that produce more guns in circulation than there are people in the country. The black market definitely contributes to that, but so do your gun laws and gun culture mentality.

Your gun laws are not even close to common sense. Everyone who owns a firearm should have to go through rigorous mandatory safety training, just like you do for operating a vehicle. And you should have to renew your license on a regular basis. (Australia implemented this in their gun reform in 1996 after having had 10 mass shootings in 10 years — defined as a shooting involving five or more victims —  leading up to the Port Arthur shooting. In the 20 years that followed they had one. In 2014 there was a familicide that resulted in 5 deaths. Though familicide by nature is very hard to regulate, as you can kill trusting family members with a pillow in their sleep.)
And there should be universal background checks on gun purchases, so that people with a history of violence or severe mental illness don't get their hands on guns.
Your laws even let the Orlando club shooter buy assault rifles, while he was put on a no-fly list for suspicion of terrorist group affiliations on two separate occasions.
That's grounds for preventing him from flying, but not buying guns?

Yeah, common sense my ass.

Last edited by Hiku - on 18 May 2018

Another product of dumb shitty parents no doubt.



Hiku said:
Aeolus451 said:

You're exaggerating to the point of strawmanning especially with your numbers. Limit the entrances in a school to 1 or 2 and equip them with metal detectors and use a few young/healthy ex-military with more than side-arms with metal detectors. Make every school a hard target.

Banning guns is off the table. We already have common sense gun laws. There's not alot of practical solutions or easy solutions. We're gonna have to refine what's there already.

And place a minfield on the schoolyard and give each student a map to memorize. That will limit the number of potential shooters to students who go to the same school.

As for "we already have common sense gunlaws" you have the most insane and lax gunlaws of any first world country.
There is no common sense in restricting background checks when 97% of the population wants universal background checks. http://theweek.com/speedreads/756459/97-percent-americans-want-universal-background-checks-gun-buyers-67-percent-want-ban-assault-weapons
There is no common sense that you require no safety training to own a firearm when 495 people died in the US in 2016 from just accidentally discharging a firearm. https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths-statistics

495 people! To put into perspective, it would take about 55 years for Japan to have as many gun related deaths in total (including suicide, homicide, police shootings and accidents) if Japan had the same population as USA. (They have about 30% of the US population.)
And just for the record, USA had 33,599 gun related deaths in total that year. (Although most were suicides. But the homicide rate is still astronomical.)

And there is no common sense in gun laws that produce more guns in circulation than there are people in the country. The black market definitely contributes to that, but so do your gun laws and gun culture mentality.

Your gun laws are not even close to common sense. Everyone who owns a firearm should have to go through mandatory safety training, just like you do for operating a vehicle. And there should be universal background checks on gun purchases, so that people with a history of violence or severe mental illness don't get their hands on guns.
Your laws even let the Orlando club shooter buy assault rifles, while he was put on a no-fly list for suspicion of terrorist group affiliations on two separate occasions.
That's grounds for preventing him from flying, but not buying guns?

Yeah, common sense my ass.

We have background checks and people with diagnosed mental illnesses or flagged can't legally buy a gun.

You're bringing in accidental shootings and suicides into this? To fluff it up of course. Let's put this in perspective.

Per year, guns in the US saves more lives in self defense from all crime than from any death by a gun in the US.

http://americangunfacts.com 

http://thinkaboutnow.com/2016/06/study-guns-stop-crime-2-5-million-times-each-year/



Hiku said:
FIT_Gamer said:
At least there won't be a shortage on thoughts and prayers...

Nothing else can be done. Says only country where this frequently happens.



Clearly the answer is to ban all guns then, because there's no possible way that a criminal can obtain something that has been made illegal.  Worked out real well for Prohibition and The War On Drugs(TM).

"Nothing else can be done. Says only country where this frequently happens."

Ahem...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate

I'll take my chances in the US over pretty much anywhere in Central and South America these days.



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

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The obvious solution is to get rid of schools. Schools kill people. A dumb population is easier to control anyway.



Aeolus451 said:
Hiku said:

And place a minfield on the schoolyard and give each student a map to memorize. That will limit the number of potential shooters to students who go to the same school.

As for "we already have common sense gunlaws" you have the most insane and lax gunlaws of any first world country.
There is no common sense in restricting background checks when 97% of the population wants universal background checks. http://theweek.com/speedreads/756459/97-percent-americans-want-universal-background-checks-gun-buyers-67-percent-want-ban-assault-weapons
There is no common sense that you require no safety training to own a firearm when 495 people died in the US in 2016 from just accidentally discharging a firearm. https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths-statistics

495 people! To put into perspective, it would take about 55 years for Japan to have as many gun related deaths in total (including suicide, homicide, police shootings and accidents) if Japan had the same population as USA. (They have about 30% of the US population.)
And just for the record, USA had 33,599 gun related deaths in total that year. (Although most were suicides. But the homicide rate is still astronomical.)

And there is no common sense in gun laws that produce more guns in circulation than there are people in the country. The black market definitely contributes to that, but so do your gun laws and gun culture mentality.

Your gun laws are not even close to common sense. Everyone who owns a firearm should have to go through mandatory safety training, just like you do for operating a vehicle. And there should be universal background checks on gun purchases, so that people with a history of violence or severe mental illness don't get their hands on guns.
Your laws even let the Orlando club shooter buy assault rifles, while he was put on a no-fly list for suspicion of terrorist group affiliations on two separate occasions.
That's grounds for preventing him from flying, but not buying guns?

Yeah, common sense my ass.

We have background checks and people with diagnosed mental illnesses or flagged can't legally buy a gun.

You're bringing in accidental shootings and suicides into this? To fluff it up of course. Let's put this in perspective.

Per year, guns in the US saves more lives in self defense from all crime than from any death by a gun in the US.

http://americangunfacts.com 

http://thinkaboutnow.com/2016/06/study-guns-stop-crime-2-5-million-times-each-year/

You don't have universal background checks, and so every relevant person who is a potential risk doesn't end up in the registry.

Bringing in accidents surprises you? When negligence is so lethal that it leads to that many deaths in a year, I'd like to think it's very relevant to bring it up the issue of gun safety. But feel free to tell me why it's not?

As for your claim and that link, aside from the fact that it doesn't cite any source, and the links links that supposedly go to a source don't appear clickable any more, of course gun violence runs a high risk of increasing in gun-free zones such as schools when gun accessibility everywhere surrounding it is still normal. That's cherry picking statistics. That's why gun lobbyists point to these half-hearted attempts and go "see"?
Though this claim appears to be bogus cherry picking, according to research conducted by actual legitimate sources, like the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) and the The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).



http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

Anyway, you accused the person you replied to of borderline-strawmanning. Now you didn't contest anything I said about how your gun laws don't make sense, and instead changed the subject.
Let's stick to that instead. How does mandatory safety training not make sense for example?
And should 13 year olds be able to legally purchase a rifle?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB7MwvqCtlk

Apparently if it's a private sale it's legal by federal law.

Last edited by Hiku - on 18 May 2018

So it turns out that despite earlier reports, the shooter did not use the media's favorite murder weapon - the dreaded high capacity, high velocity, fully semi-automatic, big scary looking weapon of war AR-15 style "assault rifle".

Instead, he just used a revolver pistol and a sawed-off shotgun (which is already illegal in the US btw) that he stole from his dad to carry out all that carnage.  Oh, and he also made improvised explosives like pipe bombs and pressure cookers that he had planned to set off (or just failed to do so).

Slim pickings for the media and gun control lobby this time around... this'll probably be forgotten about by Monday.



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

NightDragon83 said:
Hiku said:

Nothing else can be done. Says only country where this frequently happens.

Clearly the answer is to ban all guns then, because there's no possible way that a criminal can obtain something that has been made illegal.  Worked out real well for Prohibition and The War On Drugs(TM).

"Nothing else can be done. Says only country where this frequently happens."

Ahem...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate

I'll take my chances in the US over pretty much anywhere in Central and South America these days.

It's interesting that your first thought is to compare USA to developing countries.
I was more thinking about Canada, UK, Australia, etc. Other first world countries. In Australia the same gun that was used in the Sandy Hook shooting costs $33 000 on the black market. While it doesn't stop everyone from carrying out these deeds, it certainly deters many.
In the 10 years prior to the gun reform in Australia, they had 10 massacres. (— defined as a shooting involving five or more victims —) In the 20 years that followed they had one. In 2014 there was a familicide that resulted in 5 deaths. Though familicide by nature is very hard to regulate, as you can kill trusting family members with a pillow in their sleep.

Also for the record, I don't think you could just outright ban guns in the US. You'd have to start with heavy gun reform, and if they ever want to get to banning guns it would take a very long time. But at this point I just want some sensible gun reform. Mandatory safety training for starters, and universal background checks.

Last edited by Hiku - on 18 May 2018

The fact that this kind of event is becoming normalized by a portion of Americans is the most shocking thing.

Letting hundreds of people die just to conserve the right to get guns in the most easiest way possible is probably one of the most selfish act you could partake in.

Regulations need to be applicated (And no, I'm not talking about outright banning guns ...)



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