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Forums - Politics Discussion - Delta and United join list of companies to cut ties with the NRA - maybe this truly is the end of gun rights in the US?

o_O.Q said:
Nem said:

What the utter hell? You live in a democracy, albeit a flawed one. You think you with your gun are gonna take down the US highly trained and equipped military? Really?! And for this you will enable mass murders in a monthly basis? Who is being infantile here?

 

Death happens yes, murder can be reduced.

 

Dude, this isn't the middle ages. You are independant and have the worlds biggest military. Your weapon is your vote. A gun will just get you killed.

"And for this you will enable mass murders in a monthly basis?"

england and france have gun control and they've had just about the same number of mass murders last year... so what's your point?

 

"Death happens yes, murder can be reduced."

true if you wanted to completely eradicate murder you actually could... you'd just have to enslave the entire community completely

or you could be sensible and accept that the individuals of a society in exchange for a reasonable amount of freedom must take on an appropriate amount of responsibility for their safety as a result

what i do know is that you cannot have freedom without responsibility

 

"Dude, this isn't the middle ages. You are independant "

yes exactly and that's the point how did countries like france and america progress towards being relatively free societies?

in france the people rose up and cut the heads of those in charge because they were tyrannical

the same type of battle occurred with the colonists in america

and that is the core of this issue, that the people should always be prepared to fight for their freedom if their government becomes tyrannical

not as you are suggesting adopt the mentality of slaves because things at present aren't quite that severe yet

So, you say, defending Anarchy once more. Let the children die, we are gonna overthrow the worlds best military with our pee shooters!

It's delusion comparable to Religion.

Also, i lol at your lies. https://www.snopes.com/dunblane-school-shootings-ban/



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I want gun rights to stay. Just don't give guns to those with mentally problems, criminals and those reported to the FBI.



Nem said:
captain carot said:

It's actually easy in parts of Europe. Gun law is national law after all. Belgium got a strict firearm law 12 years ago, Finland still is relatively lax as is Switzerland.

Even how the police is armed depends on every nation (or federal state in Germany). Most british officers don't have a fire arm at all as far as i know. And it works, at least until today.

I'm pretty sure that even the most "lax" ones are extremely strict compared to the US ones. Though i guess there were shootings in that region recently, so it's more proof of concept.

Honestly, if your case is that a proper educational systeme helps, i can agree with that. That definitly doesn't help the US.

 

At the end of the day, the problem we get to in the US is that the system makes politicians corrupt as they are bought by companies and their "donations". That is the root problem.

Having no control is pretty stupid i think. It's been shown in many ways over the years that the american system doesn't work in terms of firearms. Just put accidents in and you see why.

As said before, you need a driving license even in the US (though getting it really is a joke in many states) but you don't really need a license for guns. At least nothing that is worht the name.

But the main problem is the american mentality towards guns, not laws alone. That mentality is very different from what you usually see in middle or western Europe.



the-pi-guy said:
Nem said:

Ryan... honestly... we have no gun rights in europe. Do you think we have no freedom? (aquisition is highly regulated)

Why do some americans think this way? That is utterly ridiculous. Are you planning a revolution and that's why you want guns? Why are you defending Anarchy?

It's so backwards that i don't even know what to say. How can people not see that? Civilians don't need guns. You are living in a developed country. You are safe. All the easy to get guns do is make it easy for people to kill each other everytime they get angry at something. It's not civilised. It's not the wild west anymore.

Do you really need to sacrifice a bunch of children to the slaughter every year just to keep your illusion that with your gun you can go take down the government? This is utter lunacy!

It's largely because people in the US are convinced of it by their media (social media and fox news.)  

It helps that there are a few huge examples like the revolutionary war that people think we owe guns our freedom.  

 

o_O.Q said:

"Guns don’t make you free, nor do they protect your freedom"

the war for independence?

the civil war?

Many countries became independent from Britain without a war.  So at best, the US war for independence only made it happen sooner than it otherwise would have.  

Civil war doesn't really make sense.  Both sides had guns.  And the side that was "fighting for it's (messed up) freedoms" lost.    

One could make the argument that the South would have had freedom longer if they didn't have guns.   The Civil War didn't start until after the South attacked the North.

There are plenty of countries that didn't have to fight a war for their freedom.

In 2018 though, your guns don't protect your freedom.  

If the US government wanted to take your freedom away, there's absolutely nothing that could be done about it.  The US spends many billions on weapons every year.  They have bombs, unmanned drones, and much more.  

"Many countries became independent from Britain without a war.  So at best, the US war for independence only made it happen sooner than it otherwise would have.  "

solely because it was not in britains benefit to control them in the same fashion... if it had been then nothing would have changed unless those countries fought for their independence

 

"Civil war doesn't really make sense.  Both sides had guns.  And the side that was "fighting for it's (messed up) freedoms" lost."

suppose the north didn't have guns and the south did?

 

"In 2018 though, your guns don't protect your freedom.  "

because human behavior has changed?

 

"If the US government wanted to take your freedom away, there's absolutely nothing that could be done about it.  The US spends many billions on weapons every year.  They have bombs, unmanned drones, and much more.  "

well that's your mindset to adopt the mentality of a serf and just accept whatever may come your way passively

but you have to understand that there are people who have a different mindset and are instead willing to fight for their freedom if they perceive that they are being oppressed by whatever authority figures hold control

the argument you just presented though could have been level at the peasants in france when they revolted

"why bother man, the monarchs have all the weapons and power and wealth and stuff lets just sit back and accept the abuse, being a slave isn't that bad man"



RolStoppable said:
Nem said:

Rol, your antics aren't gonna help you this time, this is no joking matter. You enable murder with your position, there's no escaping it. Guns are for killing. Theres no other function.

You should reread the conversation. You got upset over my position and then proceeded to post a rebuttal that supports my position.

No, you just assumed that crazy people is a limited ammount of people, but everone has the capability of going crazy given enough leverage and anger. All of us are a potencial crazy person. Wich is why the less people are armed the better.



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Good. American society is clearly not ready for so-called gun "rights". Best to reduce them to gun privileges like just about the rest of the developed world.



Nem said:
o_O.Q said:

"And for this you will enable mass murders in a monthly basis?"

england and france have gun control and they've had just about the same number of mass murders last year... so what's your point?

 

"Death happens yes, murder can be reduced."

true if you wanted to completely eradicate murder you actually could... you'd just have to enslave the entire community completely

or you could be sensible and accept that the individuals of a society in exchange for a reasonable amount of freedom must take on an appropriate amount of responsibility for their safety as a result

what i do know is that you cannot have freedom without responsibility

 

"Dude, this isn't the middle ages. You are independant "

yes exactly and that's the point how did countries like france and america progress towards being relatively free societies?

in france the people rose up and cut the heads of those in charge because they were tyrannical

the same type of battle occurred with the colonists in america

and that is the core of this issue, that the people should always be prepared to fight for their freedom if their government becomes tyrannical

not as you are suggesting adopt the mentality of slaves because things at present aren't quite that severe yet

So, you say, defending Anarchy once more. Let the children die, we are gonna overthrow the worlds best military with our pee shooters!

It's delusion comparable to Religion.

Also, i lol at your lies. https://www.snopes.com/dunblane-school-shootings-ban/

"So, you say, defending Anarchy once more. Let the children die, we are gonna overthrow the worlds best military with our pee shooters!"

stop saying anarchy, all that does is demonstrate that you have no clue what the word means

and as i said suggesting that taking away all the guns from a society will "save the children" is a pretty stupid argument dude

 

"Also, i lol at your lies. https://www.snopes.com/dunblane-school-shootings-ban/"

you missed my point because you're laboring under the delusion that guns are the only tools that can be used to kill people

 

"It's delusion comparable to Religion."

most of the delusional people i've interacted with recently have been atheists... so i don't get the point of posting this but whatever

the assumption that because somebody rejects religion that they automatically have a better chance of becoming rational is one of the most amusing notions i've been seeing recently but i digress



Nem said:
RolStoppable said:

You should reread the conversation. You got upset over my position and then proceeded to post a rebuttal that supports my position.

No, you just assumed that crazy people is a limited ammount of people, but everone has the capability of going crazy given enough leverage and anger. All of us are a potencial crazy person. Wich is why the less people are armed the better.

Our conversation never advanced to the point you are describing here.

Still, I'd like to point out that your conclusion is that it's not guns which are the problem, but rather people.



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o_O.Q said:

"Many countries became independent from Britain without a war.  So at best, the US war for independence only made it happen sooner than it otherwise would have.  "

solely because it was not in britains benefit to control them in the same fashion... if it had been then nothing would have changed unless those countries fought for their independence

You're thanking freedom for having guns, when there are other countries that gained their freedom without guns.  It's hardly the case that all freedoms come with war.  The US in particular has had several peaceful successes with gaining new freedoms such as the civil rights movement.  

"Civil war doesn't really make sense.  Both sides had guns.  And the side that was "fighting for it's (messed up) freedoms" lost."

suppose the north didn't have guns and the south did?

Then the north 

"In 2018 though, your guns don't protect your freedom.  "

because human behavior has changed?

Yes and no.  

This is the most peaceful time in history. Not because of gun ownership, but because of democracy.  Many countries on Earth today, have enormous freedoms despite ridiculously low gun ownership rates.  

"If the US government wanted to take your freedom away, there's absolutely nothing that could be done about it.  The US spends many billions on weapons every year.  They have bombs, unmanned drones, and much more.  "

well that's your mindset to adopt the mentality of a serf and just accept whatever may come your way passively

but you have to understand that there are people who have a different mindset and are instead willing to fight for their freedom if they perceive that they are being oppressed by whatever authority figures hold control

the argument you just presented though could have been level at the peasants in france when they revolted

"why bother man, the monarchs have all the weapons and power and wealth and stuff lets just sit back and accept the abuse, being a slave isn't that bad man"

The weapons that were available to common folk throughout history were much closer to the military weapons.  This isn't the case anymore.  The US government literally has the power to end nearly all life on Earth.  



RolStoppable said:
Nem said:

No, you just assumed that crazy people is a limited ammount of people, but everone has the capability of going crazy given enough leverage and anger. All of us are a potencial crazy person. Wich is why the less people are armed the better.

Our conversation never advanced to the point you are describing here.

Still, I'd like to point out that your conclusion is that it's not guns which are the problem, but rather people.

Objects don't have a will of their own, but they have functions. People kill people. If they have instruments that kill more easily, they will kill more often. That is the point.

You can't change people, but you can make it difficult for them to get their hands on highly effective murder weapons.