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Forums - Politics - Delaware students can now choose their own race (Yes, RACE!) under new regulations.

Locknuts said:
sundin13 said:

What exactly is this post supposed to mean?

It means variations in the human genome have changed our appearances and behaviour via natural selection depending on our environments over the last 50,000 years.

Who says they haven't? And what does that have to do with Christianity? 



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the-pi-guy said:

 

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/human-skin-color-variation

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-is-racial-identity/race-and-racial-identity-are-social-constructs

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/what-we-mean-when-we-say-race-is-a-social-construct/275872/

Locknuts said:

I do like though how evolution is great because it goes against the traditional Christian narrative, but it somehow stopped 50,000 years ago. Oh and effects everything but the human brain.

I don't even understand what this is.  

No one says evolution stopped 50,000 years ago.  

White skin and blue eyes are less than 10,000 years old.  

Humans have very little variation genetically.  We have far less variation than dogs, or even chimpanzees despite the quantity of humans.  

"As it turns out, scientists say, the human species is so evolutionarily young, and its migratory patterns so wide, restless and rococo, that it has simply not had a chance to divide itself into separate biological groups or ''races'' in any but the most superficial ways.

''Race is a social concept, not a scientific one,'' said Dr. J. Craig Venter, head of the Celera Genomics Corporation in Rockville, Md. ''We all evolved in the last 100,000 years from the same small number of tribes that migrated out of Africa and colonized the world.''"

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/22/science/do-races-differ-not-really-genes-show.html

Come on. We aren't even close to understanding the human genome. It's in this ambiguity that people insert their ideology. 

Did you know that you share 50% of your genes with a banana? Slight variations to the frequency of alleles in the genome can produce different results. My point is that in 50,000 years, significant changes have taken place. Not in percentage terms of what we understand of the human genome, but in obvious, observable, testable reality.



sundin13 said:
Locknuts said:

It means variations in the human genome have changed our appearances and behaviour via natural selection depending on our environments over the last 50,000 years.

Who says they haven't? And what does that have to do with Christianity? 

It was just a little jab at the people who laugh at Christians for not believing in evolution while simultaneously ignoring the obvious differences between people who evolved on different parts of the planet over the last 50,000 years.

Oh and lots of people seem to have this mindset. 



Who cares? o.o



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Locknuts said:
sundin13 said:

Who says they haven't? And what does that have to do with Christianity? 

It was just a little jab at the people who laugh at Christians for not believing in evolution while simultaneously ignoring the obvious differences between people who evolved on different parts of the planet over the last 50,000 years.

Oh and lots of people seem to have this mindset. 

The fact that evolution has occurred implies that we are different from what we were 50,000 years ago, not that we have increased the divisions within the species. That is a different question altogether, and they shouldn't really be compounded to imply hypocrisy. 



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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

"the thing is that you do people a disservice because there are, for example, medical problems that are more severe in one group over the other such as sensitivity to sun light and susceptibility to high blood pressure, which are important to note"

 

"Overall, the importance of race is a social construct, not something genetic or inherent."

do you feel the same about sex?

Do you do people a disservice by not dividing by race? When I go to a doctor about, say, high blood pressure, he doesn't ask me where in the world my family originated from, he asks me if anyone in my family suffers from high blood pressure. The reason for this is because within-group variation is often much larger and more prominent than between-group variation. While broad patterns may exist, they often largely overlap between-groups and they say little about the situation of any one individual within that group.

Further, since when have we divided humans based on susceptibility to high blood pressure? I am white and I have no history of high blood pressure in my family. I have a white friend who does have a history of high blood pressure. I have a black friend who does not have a history of high blood pressure. If we are dividing based on medical characteristics, it would make far more sense to put me and hypothetical black friend in the same groups and hypothetical white friend in a separate group. Why would we use such broad brush divisions which serve poorly as a predictor?

And why are we dividing humans by susceptibility to disease? When I filled out forms on my SAT, I wasn't asked if my father suffered from male pattern baldness. Susceptibility to disease is more or less irrelevant to a school. That is something that should be discussed with a doctor (and again, if the first thing your doctor asks you when you go in talking about lumps in your breasts is whether or not you are white, you should probably find a new doctor). 

As far as sex, it is a significantly more prominent genetic factor than race, however, to some extent, the divisions we have created are social. That is what gender is. Gender speaks to the social constructs surrounding biological sex, and on that point, the importance of these divisions is a social construct. While genetic differences in sex are obviously real, they are also more complicated than a simple binary, and transgendered individuals are often a manifestation of one or both of these points. I'm not really sure what kind of answer you are looking for on this question, so I could elaborate if you ask me something in more detail.

"When I go to a doctor about, say, high blood pressure, he doesn't ask me where in the world my family originated from, he asks me if anyone in my family suffers from high blood pressure. The reason for this is because within-group variation is often much larger and more prominent than between-group variation."

the fact that in group variation is higher than between group group variation is irrelevant

if we say a range of 110 to 140 is greater than a range from 70 to 80 but then say that for our purposes we cannot exceed 100... what factors then are most important?

 

"since when have we divided humans based on susceptibility to high blood pressure? "

hypertension?

 

"Susceptibility to disease is more or less irrelevant to a school."

so why was there discussion about children going to school who were not vaccinated?

 

" I have a black friend who does not have a history of high blood pressure. If we are dividing based on medical characteristics, it would make far more sense to put me and hypothetical black friend in the same groups and hypothetical white friend in a separate group. Why would we use such broad brush divisions which serve poorly as a predictor?"

this is like saying why bother hitting on a girl since she might end up being gay... i mean really?

 

"I'm not really sure what kind of answer you are looking for on this question"

the one you presented was sufficient




JWeinCom said:
Aeolus451 said:

Well, to prevent people like Lauren Southern from using it to identify as something as a joke or to make a point. If they're not going to prevent people like Rachel Dolezal from identifying whatever race she wants, they really can't say someone can't be a dragon. Yeah, it's absurd but that's where were at.

What does Rachel Dolezal have to do with this?  Is she a minor student in the Delaware school system? 

She identifies as a race she is not. It's one thing if a person believes something like that but it's quite another when laws are made that make everyone else have to play along.



Flilix said:
o_O.Q said:

"'Flying' is not the charasteristic that defines birds"

really? so lets say i gather 100 people and ask them to name a flying animal... what do you suppose the answer would be for 99% of them

now flying is not the main characteristic of birds sure, there are others such as being covered in feathers as opposed to fur, for example

Yes, really. As long as there's at least one flying creature that isn't a bird, and as long as there's at least one bird that can't fly; flying is not a charasteristic of birds.
By the way, the vast majority of flying species aren't even birds.

 

"The dinstiction between animal classes is made by multiple charasteristics. These are selected in the most logical way possible, but they're still artificial."

so humans caused birds to grow wings? and fish to grow scales? are you fucking trolling?

I don't know how you could possibly have concluded that out of what I wrote.


" 'not being able to fly' is not a charasterictic of mammals"

yes but giving birth to live young is...

Platypus don't give birth to living youngs, yet they're mammals. Do you start to notice how complex and random these divisions are sometimes?

 

" However, all the other mammals would still be the same."

yeah... does this make a lion a cannibal when it eats a gazelle?

The idea of 'cannibalism' is just as artificial as 'species'. The definition of cannibalism is: 'the practice of eating the flesh of one's own species'. Lions and gazelles are not considered to be the same species. Therefore, it's not cannibalism.

 

"Living creatures aren't inherently divided into strict groups."

so why don't tuna, elephants, lions and flamingos all swim in schools?

Because 'swimming in schools' is not an inherently good reason to consider a certain creature to be a different species. I have blue eyes, other people have brown eyes, why aren't we considered to be different species?

Mind you, I already said that scientists always attempt to make divisions as logical as possible. Of cource the ability to swim is a more logical reason for a division that the eyecolour. However, there's no way to strictly determine which reason is better than others.

 

"Scientists made these groups up"

scientists categorise and label phenomenon THAT ALREADY EXIST when it comes to biology

Nope.


 

"As long as there's at least one flying creature that isn't a bird, and as long as there's at least one bird that can't fly; flying is not a charasteristic of birds."

lol ok

there've been people born with 8 limbs... would you as a result say that being bipedal is, therefore, not a characteristic of human beings?

 

"I don't know how you could possibly have concluded that out of what I wrote."

you said that the characteristics we use to categorise are artificial, the labels may be, but obviously not the characteristics themselves, or was that what you were saying? if so i apologise

 

"Platypus don't give birth to living youngs, yet they're mammals. Do you start to notice how complex and random these divisions are sometimes?"

i do but you don't, is your argument not that the divisions do not exist at all?

 

"The idea of 'cannibalism' is just as artificial as 'species'."

so there's no difference between killing and eating a cow versus a human?

 

"However, there's no way to strictly determine which reason is better than others."

yeah i can tell you've got the whole "everything is subjective nothing is objective" thing going on

but regardless, if there are no inherent differences between animals why can't elephants swim in fish schools?

 

"scientists categorise and label phenomenon THAT ALREADY EXIST when it comes to biology

Nope."

really now, so what have scientists created as an example?



o_O.Q said: 

1) the fact that in group variation is higher than between group group variation is irrelevant.I f we say a range of 110 to 140 is greater than a range from 70 to 80 but then say that for our purposes we cannot exceed 100... what factors then are most important?

2) hypertension?

3) so why was there discussion about children going to school who were not vaccinated?

4) This is like saying why bother hitting on a girl since she might end up being gay... i mean really?

5) The one you presented was sufficient


1) The issue is that between-group variation typically overlaps (which is something I said in my last post), leaving you with competing ranges of 70-120 vs 80-130. As such, the majority of the "difference" is virtually indistinguishable. And even still, other factors such as family history tend to be a better indicator of the potential presence of a particular trait than race. 

2) Do you consider hypertension to be a natural social division? Were you asked whether you had hypertension when you were taking the SAT? Again, if the doctor wants to know these things, that is fine, but these aren't social divisions. These are not things that are relevant in pretty much any context but the doctor's office (and even still, their relevance there is extremely limited and most of the time irrelevant). As such, to maintain these divisions outside of the extremely limited context where they have any application is to socially construct their importance. Which is what I've been arguing. So the question becomes: do you disagree that the heavy importance and social divisions built around race are socially constructed? 

3) Because that is about the potential of being contagious. High blood pressure and male pattern baldness and other diseases with a strong genetic component typically aren't contagious. To bring it up is to kind of sidestep this entire conversation.

4) How is it like that in literally any way? What is that even supposed to mean?

5) No response?



Aeolus451 said:
JWeinCom said:

What does Rachel Dolezal have to do with this?  Is she a minor student in the Delaware school system? 

She identifies as a race she is not. It's one thing if a person believes something like that but it's quite another when laws are made that make everyone else have to play along.

Except that this law doesn't do that... Since it explicitly states that they can reject the self identification.

I'll ask the same question that other people talking about how insane this is refuse to answer.

What would you do differently to enter data for the Delaware school computer systems?