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What is Libertyto you?

Definition 1 3 33.33%
 
Definition 2 3 33.33%
 
Definition 3 0 0%
 
Other (specify) 3 33.33%
 
Total:9
palou said:
Aeolus451 said:

Limiting free expression/speech beyond threatening/encouraging violence is oppressive. 

Within reason as in common sense laws like don't murder, steal or rape others or destroy other's property.

If you require those specific discriminants, the concept of liberty isn't a very useful one, then, is it? Doesn't give any new incite on how to treat morality, since we're still going on a case-by-case basis - no progress from just saying "this good" , "this bad" without further explanation.

Also, what is violence? If we define it as anything that causes harm to another, that can be VERY broad. If we don't... again, more discriminants, more arbitrary lines to be drawn.

Basic common sense laws aren't antithetical to liberty. It's about having the most personal freedom you can within society but again within reason. It's very useful as a basis for a society because it protects the personal freedom of the individual against the whims of the collective and people are ultimately happier/better off for it. I would love it if SJWs and some religious people would adopt liberty as a basis of their beliefs, we'd be better off. 

 



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Aeolus451 said:
palou said:

If you require those specific discriminants, the concept of liberty isn't a very useful one, then, is it? Doesn't give any new incite on how to treat morality, since we're still going on a case-by-case basis - no progress from just saying "this good" , "this bad" without further explanation.

Also, what is violence? If we define it as anything that causes harm to another, that can be VERY broad. If we don't... again, more discriminants, more arbitrary lines to be drawn.

Basic common sense laws aren't antithetical to liberty. It's about having the most personal freedom you can within society but again within reason. It's very useful as a basis for a society because it protects the personal freedom of the individual against the whims of the collective and people are ultimately happier/better off for it. I would love it if SJWs and some religious people would adopt liberty as a basis of their beliefs, we'd be better off. 

 

The problem is when you start to believe that the current way is the ideal way, and groups that attempt to change that (such as "SJWs" as you say) are upsetting the order of things, without considering that change needs to be made in order to improve things.



VGPolyglot said:
Aeolus451 said:

Basic common sense laws aren't antithetical to liberty. It's about having the most personal freedom you can within society but again within reason. It's very useful as a basis for a society because it protects the personal freedom of the individual against the whims of the collective and people are ultimately happier/better off for it. I would love it if SJWs and some religious people would adopt liberty as a basis of their beliefs, we'd be better off. 

 

The problem is when you start to believe that the current way is the ideal way, and groups that attempt to change that (such as "SJWs" as you say) are upsetting the order of things, without considering that change needs to be made in order to improve things.

I'm not against change in general but that's a case by case kind of of thing. I won't buy into something just it's some kind of change or labeled as "geared toward progress". I'm not fine with how things but I highly disagree with the kind of change SJWs want because it's counterproductive to real equality and progression. I want equality in the sense that people treat each other as equals and not based on their sex, race, sexuality or religious beliefs. Liberty is conductive to that.



Mar1217 said:
Not achievable in the current way our society is nowadays.

And it's funny cuz we just had a philosophy class were we talked about the authenticity of art which eventually linked to this subject.

Sadly, my english isn't advance enough to talk about the conclusions we reached, but I can affirm that VGPolyglot is on the right track.

français, si tu veux, l'internet n'appartient à aucune langue...



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

Aeolus451 said:
palou said:

If you require those specific discriminants, the concept of liberty isn't a very useful one, then, is it? Doesn't give any new incite on how to treat morality, since we're still going on a case-by-case basis - no progress from just saying "this good" , "this bad" without further explanation.

Also, what is violence? If we define it as anything that causes harm to another, that can be VERY broad. If we don't... again, more discriminants, more arbitrary lines to be drawn.

Basic common sense laws aren't antithetical to liberty. It's about having the most personal freedom you can within society but again within reason. It's very useful as a basis for a society because it protects the personal freedom of the individual against the whims of the collective and people are ultimately happier/better off for it. I would love it if SJWs and some religious people would adopt liberty as a basis of their beliefs, we'd be better off. 

 

So, you *do* actually agree that liberty is *not* an axiomatical value, but rather a tool we use to obtain a result of greater happiness? 



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

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palou said:
Mar1217 said:
Not achievable in the current way our society is nowadays.

And it's funny cuz we just had a philosophy class were we talked about the authenticity of art which eventually linked to this subject.

Sadly, my english isn't advance enough to talk about the conclusions we reached, but I can affirm that VGPolyglot is on the right track.

français, si tu veux, l'internet n'appartient à aucune langue...

C'est aussi une bonne occasion de m'exprimer en français.



palou said:
Aeolus451 said:

Basic common sense laws aren't antithetical to liberty. It's about having the most personal freedom you can within society but again within reason. It's very useful as a basis for a society because it protects the personal freedom of the individual against the whims of the collective and people are ultimately happier/better off for it. I would love it if SJWs and some religious people would adopt liberty as a basis of their beliefs, we'd be better off. 

 

So, you *do* actually agree that liberty is *not* an axiomatical value, but rather a tool we use to obtain a result of greater happiness? 

Well, liberty can't be axiomatic if some people can't see it's value to everyone. If a country values liberty and upholds it, its people will be happier and better off for it.



Aeolus451 said:
palou said:

So, you *do* actually agree that liberty is *not* an axiomatical value, but rather a tool we use to obtain a result of greater happiness? 

Well, liberty can't be axiomatic if some people can't see it's value to everyone. If a country values liberty and upholds it, its people will be happier and better off for it.

Why not directly value happiness, instead? It seems more logical to me to derive the tools from the wanted result, rather than the other way round.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

palou said:
Aeolus451 said:

Well, liberty can't be axiomatic if some people can't see it's value to everyone. If a country values liberty and upholds it, its people will be happier and better off for it.

Why not directly value happiness, instead? It seems more logical to me to derive the tools from the wanted result, rather than the other way round.

Because people value happiness by default but people don't just become happy as a society by default. If a country values liberty, it's people are able to say what they want, believe or not believe in religion, sleep with who they want, spend their money on what they want, etc. Don't you think that they would be happier as the result of having liberty versus not being able to do what you want within reason?

Would you agree that South Korea's people are happier than North Korea's people in general? 



palou said:
Final-Fan said:

But now haven't you abandoned the absolutist position you desired?  Doesn't every transaction inherently affect other possible transactions?  This is an extreme example, but hasn't the hoarder in your hurricane example just built a different sort of "wall" around those essential goods?  Donald Trump could put a door in his wall and make John pay a fee to get stuff:  a tariff, basically, but not one imposed by a government. But no more so than the hurricane vulture selling his goods is charging "taxes". 

The difference (to a libertarian) is that the hurricane vulture, at that instance, has the property rights over the resource - obtained through a consensual transaction. While Donald is preventing transactions between different people. 

Again, I personally support a morality based on expected value, rather than liberty.

The way I see it, you're conflating two different things:  not being constrained in your actual transactions (i.e. you are not stolen from or forced to buy/sell), and not being constrained in your potential transactions (i.e. you are allowed to buy/sell whatever you want).  The vulture, if you think about it, is constraining the potential transactions of every other buyer in the local market, and this is somehow less of a violation of the principle than constraining the potential transactions of John Mexico and the people who happen to want to trade with him? 

P.S.  I think you will find that the principle proposed in your OP simply doesn't say anything on the subject of preventing people from making transactions. 



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