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Forums - Politics - What is Liberty?

 

What is Libertyto you?

Definition 1 3 33.33%
 
Definition 2 3 33.33%
 
Definition 3 0 0%
 
Other (specify) 3 33.33%
 
Total:9
Final-Fan said:
palou said:

3) Is certainly not incomplete - it really does answer the most questions with the most precision. The question is more if you like the answer or not (I don't - I find it very artificial, with the stated issues.)

My problem with 2 would be, for example;

Say, there's a hurricane incoming, in a poor nation. A smart businessman quickly buys all the essential supplies in the area, and then proceeds to sell them at a ludicrous price, which locals are forced to pay (if they can even afford it.)

1) would probably tell you that this goes against the principle of liberty, since you are preventing a lot of people from getting something that they strongly want;

3) would tell you that it's a perfectly valid transaction of wealth;

2) would tell you... well, I don't know, really?

The problem is, to me, it really doesn't seem to *solve* any problems. It simply calls them by a different name. Just shift the problem from "is this right?" to "is this infringing upon other's liberties?" 

To answer anything clearly, it seems to me that this forces you to either establish an infinite number of arbitrary discriminants (so, no progress whatsoever from just declaring everything right or wrong on a whim) or reducing your concept of "border of liberty" to either 1 or 3.

For an example of what I meant by incomplete, suppose that in a tragic misunderstanding Donald Trump built a 50 foot wall around the house of John Mexico.  Has he infringed upon John's freedom? 

I see what you mean. I think that in this case, Donald is preventing John's ability to freely use his wealth, as he is preventing him from effectuating transactions with others. (This is the same violence that a libertarian would claim to see in taxation, or tariffs - just in a more physical form.)

 

I can see how some ambiguities can pop up, if we follow that path. However, I do think that it certainly convincingly covers a much broader spectrum of situations than 2 could.

 

Regardless, I personally find that, in essence, 1 seems to be the most sensible - which leads me to the conclusion that liberty is a superfluous concept. Though, none of this is strictly bad, either - there certainly are some fine minds that have defended the others, or have found more value in the definition of 1 - just have yet to convince me.



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palou said:
Final-Fan said:

For an example of what I meant by incomplete, suppose that in a tragic misunderstanding Donald Trump built a 50 foot wall around the house of John Mexico.  Has he infringed upon John's freedom? 

I see what you mean. I think that in this case, Donald is preventing John's ability to freely use his wealth, as he is preventing him from effectuating transactions with others. (This is the same violence that a libertarian would claim to see in taxation, or tariffs - just in a more physical form.)

I can see how some ambiguities can pop up, if we follow that path. However, I do think that it certainly convincingly covers a much broader spectrum of situations than 2 could.

Regardless, I personally find that, in essence, 1 seems to be the most sensible - which leads me to the conclusion that liberty is a superfluous concept. Though, none of this is strictly bad, either - there certainly are some fine minds that have defended the others, or have found more value in the definition of 1 - just have yet to convince me.

But now haven't you abandoned the absolutist position you desired?  Doesn't every transaction inherently affect other possible transactions?  This is an extreme example, but hasn't the hoarder in your hurricane example just built a different sort of "wall" around those essential goods?  Donald Trump could put a door in his wall and make John pay a fee to get stuff:  a tariff, basically, but not one imposed by a government. But no more so than the hurricane vulture selling his goods is charging "taxes". 



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Final-Fan said:
palou said:

I see what you mean. I think that in this case, Donald is preventing John's ability to freely use his wealth, as he is preventing him from effectuating transactions with others. (This is the same violence that a libertarian would claim to see in taxation, or tariffs - just in a more physical form.)

I can see how some ambiguities can pop up, if we follow that path. However, I do think that it certainly convincingly covers a much broader spectrum of situations than 2 could.

Regardless, I personally find that, in essence, 1 seems to be the most sensible - which leads me to the conclusion that liberty is a superfluous concept. Though, none of this is strictly bad, either - there certainly are some fine minds that have defended the others, or have found more value in the definition of 1 - just have yet to convince me.

But now haven't you abandoned the absolutist position you desired?  Doesn't every transaction inherently affect other possible transactions?  This is an extreme example, but hasn't the hoarder in your hurricane example just built a different sort of "wall" around those essential goods?  Donald Trump could put a door in his wall and make John pay a fee to get stuff:  a tariff, basically, but not one imposed by a government. But no more so than the hurricane vulture selling his goods is charging "taxes". 

The difference (to a libertarian) is that the hurricane vulture, at that instance, has the property rights over the resource - obtained through a consensual transaction. While Donald is preventing transactions between different people. 

 

Again, I personally support a morality based on expected value, rather than liberty.



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deskpro2k3 said:
Qwark said:
Being able to say what you want without offending a minority or a vulnerable group. Which is kind of difficult these days with cultural appropriation and special snowflake syndrome.

you have the liberty to say what you want, it's the consequences you're afraid of.

Depends in Germany insensitive tweets are now punishable by law.

 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-accused-of-hateful-postings-over-social-media.html



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

Freedom from class conflict.



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Qwark said:
deskpro2k3 said:

you have the liberty to say what you want, it's the consequences you're afraid of.

Depends in Germany insensitive tweets are now punishable by law.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-accused-of-hateful-postings-over-social-media.html

Not only that - Germany has recently become the most censored country in Europe (judging by the number of accounts being blocked on Twitter)

We're officially even worse than Turkey now:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/welche-inhalte-twitter-in-welchen-laendern-sperrt



It's being able to do and say what you want within reason without an authority trying to unduly impose oppressive restrictions on you.



Aeolus451 said:
It's being able to do and say what you want within reason without an authority trying to unduly impose oppressive restrictions on you.

Ah, so you say nulber 2. What makes something oppressive, then? What defines within reason?



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palou said:
Aeolus451 said:
It's being able to do and say what you want within reason without an authority trying to unduly impose oppressive restrictions on you.

Ah, so you say nulber 2. What makes something oppressive, then? What defines within reason?

Limiting free expression/speech beyond threatening/encouraging violence is oppressive. 

Within reason as in common sense laws like don't murder, steal or rape others or destroy other's property.



Aeolus451 said:
palou said:

Ah, so you say nulber 2. What makes something oppressive, then? What defines within reason?

Limiting free expression/speech beyond threatening/encouraging violence is oppressive. 

Within reason as in common sense laws like don't murder, steal or rape others or destroy other's property.

If you require those specific discriminants, the concept of liberty isn't a very useful one, then, is it? Doesn't give any new incite on how to treat morality, since we're still going on a case-by-case basis - no progress from just saying "this good" , "this bad" without further explanation.

Also, what is violence? If we define it as anything that causes harm to another, that can be VERY broad. If we don't... again, more discriminants, more arbitrary lines to be drawn.



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