Forums - Politics Discussion - Half the Venezuelan economy has disappeared

Trentonater said:
Venezuela was run by a socialist politician. It wasn't itself socialist. What happened was inevitable either way.

Well they were practicing socialist policies which was part of their vast over spending, over regulating, price controlling, etc. Left wingers like to point out the private sector exists but there was left wing meddling, essentially they were killing the private sector because they're socialist and that's what they do.

Was it truly a socialist state? Not quite. Because they collapsed before they could truly achieve a socialist state.

This financial crisis could have been avoid with better leadership. Venezuela now exists as an example of how socialist policies can be dangerous.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 27 January 2018

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outlawauron said:
Nem said:

Oh it's just the old american tropes. It got taught to their fathers during the post WW2 and passed on to them, because the enemy were the germans. They really don't know/understand much about economy.

Heck, most of them think socialism=dictatorship.

Yes, the American who lead the world in every economic category surely do not understand anything about the economy. Just a bunch of ignorant fat dudes who just happen to make more money than everyone else.

Funny that you say fat, because the US has one if not the highest fat index in the world.



Nem said:
outlawauron said:

Yes, the American who lead the world in every economic category surely do not understand anything about the economy. Just a bunch of ignorant fat dudes who just happen to make more money than everyone else.

Funny that you say fat, because the US has one if not the highest fat index in the world.

I think mexico took the cake on that one. 😹



This is pretty much entirely Maduro's fault for refusing to adjust their economy's dependence on oil after the oil crash in 2014. Instead he chose to have only his friends and allies benefit from the economy, while regular people are suffering in inhumane ways.

Chavez probably shouldn't have made them as dependent on oil in the first place, but there was room for adjustments.

Last edited by Hiku - on 27 January 2018

Aeolus451 said:
Nem said:

Funny that you say fat, because the US has one if not the highest fat index in the world.

I think mexico took the cake on that one. 😹

Only because the USA sent back lots of illegal immigrants who all fell victim to the American way of eating.



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RolStoppable said:
Aeolus451 said:

I think mexico took the cake on that one. 😹

Only because the USA sent back lots of illegal immigrants who all fell victim to the American way of eating.

...or it could be what mexicans generally eat. Also, if the US limited welfare to just the people who need it, there would alot less fat people. 😏



These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger.

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america



DarthVolod said:
VGPolyglot said:

https://www.inc.com/thomas-koulopoulos/the-biggest-risk-to-your-business-cant-be-eliminated-heres-how-you-can-survive-i.html

That stat seems to suggest that most companies don't even last for 6 months, so it wouldn't be surprising at all if 67% of the companies from 19 years ago are gone.

Did you read the article you linked? Here is a key detail: 

  1. As much as 60 percent of hacked small and medium-sized businesses go out of business after six months.
So are we saying that 67% of Venezuelan companies were hacked now? Well I guess in a matter of speaking there were "hacked" to pieces by Chavez when he nationalized thousands of businesses and large segments of the economy (which is not what even his supporters expected).
What you are saying goes beyond misleading ... I think you are doing some incredible mental gymnastics here to justify the horrors that have been inflicted by an unambiguously socialist dictator. 
Also I checked the US census data as an example. Total number of firms in the US from 1991 to 2008 ... as you can see there was not a drop of 67%....   https://www.census.gov/epcd/susb/1998/us/US--.HTM  

 

Total firms (US)

2008 5,930,132
1991 5,051,025

Yes, I guess I should have been a bit more specific. However, it does say that almost 50% of small businesses encounter it, and 50% of 60% is 30%, no small number. And if Chavez was "unambiguously" socialist, why would we even have so much debate? Also, you show numbers of the differences between corporations between those years (and that was 2008, 10 years ago which is a long time), but does it say how many of those companies from 1991 were still around in 2008?



DarthVolod said:
Leadified said:

How can Venezuela be socialist if it has a private sector? Where do you draw the line between Norway and Venezuela.

More like what's left of the private sector ... only 1/3 of the companies that were there as recently as 1999 still remain. Chavez and Maduro basically declared war on the private sector and only a small fraction of what it was remains. 

What little is left of the private sector will continue to fade away, just give them time. They are doing a fantastic job of running the country into the ground as quickly as they can. 

Between 1999 and 2011 the share of economy activity from the private sector rose from 65% to 71%. Also provided is an article from Fox News, which also talks about the private sector in the country and offers some more stats. Indeed the public sector was 30% of the GDP in Venezuela compared to 25% in Sweden.

Why Venezuela is in Crisis (The Nation)
What Socialism?... (Fox News)

I suggest you also read the articles in my reply to sc94597 to see how half baked Chavez's "socialism" was. Chavez was a socialist that ran a bloated social democracy that was bound to pop when a shock like 2014's oil crisis hit. He was still working within a capitalist framework and it doesn't matter what your personal ideology is because if you run a country just as poorly as Chavez then you're still going to crash the economy.

In fact, the last economic crisis in Venezuela happened in the mid 1990s while a neoliberal government was in power and it was caused by low oil prices and financial liberalization. Before that, Venezuela had another economic crisis in the 1980s, once again caused by an oil shock and neoliberal policies. Almost as if there's a common theme to all these crisis...

I think you realise this as well which is why you avoided answering my two questions in favour of making a point about the declining private sector in the country.



Hiku said:

This is pretty much entirely Maduro's fault for refusing to adjust their economy's dependence on oil after the oil crash in 2014. Instead he chose to have only his friends and allies benefit from the economy, while regular people are suffering in inhumane ways.

Chavez probably shouldn't have made them as dependent on oil in the first place, but there was room for adjustments.

Chavez did not make them dependent on oil because Venezuela has already been dependent on oil since the 1970s. His mistake was that during a pretty long oil boom he was not able to develop the country economically so it could sustain his welfare policies.