Forums - Politics Discussion - Half the Venezuelan economy has disappeared

Nem said:
Leadified said:

How can Venezuela be socialist if it has a private sector? Where do you draw the line between Norway and Venezuela.

Oh it's just the old american tropes. It got taught to their fathers during the post WW2 and passed on to them, because the enemy were the germans. They really don't know/understand much about economy.

Heck, most of them think socialism=dictatorship.

Well, not quite it's much less about Germany and much more about the Soviet Union (although even before then the elites were demonizing socialism). With the exception of World War II, the American public has been fed propaganda for almost a century now.



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Nem said:
Leadified said:

How can Venezuela be socialist if it has a private sector? Where do you draw the line between Norway and Venezuela.

Oh it's just the old american tropes. It got taught to their fathers during the post WW2 and passed on to them, because the enemy were the germans. They really don't know/understand much about economy.

Heck, most of them think socialism=dictatorship.

Yes, the American who lead the world in every economic category surely do not understand anything about the economy. Just a bunch of ignorant fat dudes who just happen to make more money than everyone else.



outlawauron said:
Nem said:

Oh it's just the old american tropes. It got taught to their fathers during the post WW2 and passed on to them, because the enemy were the germans. They really don't know/understand much about economy.

Heck, most of them think socialism=dictatorship.

Yes, the American who lead the world in every economic category surely do not understand anything about the economy. Just a bunch of ignorant fat dudes who just happen to make more money than everyone else.

Die dümmsten Bauern haben die dicksten Kartoffeln.



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Nem said:
Final-Fan said:

Nazi Party = "National Socialist" Party

But @ Nem, I thought it went more like "Communism is bad, and socialism is Communism Lite"

It's both. Communism for the cold war. Whatever sort of political inclination it's rivals had, americans got taught to hate, most don't even understand why and confuse those doctrines with dictatorship.

betacon said:

Let me remind you what the point was. Americans think socialism and communism are evil things, often confusing them with dictatorship. Like in the Venezuela case here. Nazi= nationalist socialism. That is what the americans fought against and that was what their propaganda machine aimed at. Were you expecting them to give the masses a political lesson? It doesn't work.

But, yes, that is why they are so unfamiliar with it and think it's an evil thing.

At this point I'm going to ask you for some evidence that Americans were "taught to hate" socialism because of anti-Nazi propaganda and that this influenced public thought on a level comparable to the anti-Communist propaganda that included socialism in the public mind.  Because I'm not convinced that you didn't just go, "Americans hate Nazis and socialists, must be connected". 

When I hear people talk about how bad socialism is, I do hear comparisons to the USSR and how it's a slippery slope to communism or socialists are secretly communists, but I don't recall ever hearing about Nazi Germany in anti-socialist rants.  It could be just because the Cold War is more recent and lasted longer, but I still need evidence to be swayed by a claim that goes against available observation.

Also, what is your evidence that Americans confuse socialism with specifically dictatorship?—and I mean actual dictatorship and not misusing dictatorship as a synonym for "mob rule", and not dictatorship as "well it's communist and communist countries turn into dictatorships".

[edit:  I mean, I often hear complaints about how socialist Europe is and how we need to avoid turning into socialists like they did, but they don't turn that into warnings about European dictatorships.]

Last edited by Final-Fan - on 26 January 2018

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RolStoppable said:
outlawauron said:

Yes, the American who lead the world in every economic category surely do not understand anything about the economy. Just a bunch of ignorant fat dudes who just happen to make more money than everyone else.

Die dümmsten Bauern haben die dicksten Kartoffeln.

I don't know about that, but I will concede that we have the thickest farmers.



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Socialism kills. Enough said.



outlawauron said:
RolStoppable said:

Die dümmsten Bauern haben die dicksten Kartoffeln.

I don't know about that, but I will concede that we have the thickest farmers.

It's a German proverb that is commonly used in a context of envy. Someone else is better off at something and you put yourself above them by insinuating that it's because of luck. The dumbest farmers bringing in the most valuable harvests, basically saying that they have no idea what they are doing, but the results of their efforts are very positive in spite of it.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Gamers Club

Leadified said:
DarthVolod said:

So the means of production are all state owned in Norway now? It is more accurate to say Norway is capitalist in economic terms, but they also heavily tax and provide a large welfare state ... not exactly pure socialism if you ask me; more a mixed social democracy concoction. 

Destabilizing factors ruined Venezuela? I know US relations with them have been crap for a long time but that is one hell of a reach to pin the blame on the US while ignoring the dictator and the whole state run economy society-destroying socialism they embraced. 

How can Venezuela be socialist if it has a private sector? Where do you draw the line between Norway and Venezuela.

More like what's left of the private sector ... only 1/3 of the companies that were there as recently as 1999 still remain. Chavez and Maduro basically declared war on the private sector and only a small fraction of what it was remains. 

What little is left of the private sector will continue to fade away, just give them time. They are doing a fantastic job of running the country into the ground as quickly as they can. 



DarthVolod said:
Leadified said:

How can Venezuela be socialist if it has a private sector? Where do you draw the line between Norway and Venezuela.

More like what's left of the private sector ... only 1/3 of the companies that were there as recently as 1999 still remain. Chavez and Maduro basically declared war on the private sector and only a small fraction of what it was remains. 

What little is left of the private sector will continue to fade away, just give them time. They are doing a fantastic job of running the country into the ground as quickly as they can. 

https://www.inc.com/thomas-koulopoulos/the-biggest-risk-to-your-business-cant-be-eliminated-heres-how-you-can-survive-i.html

That stat seems to suggest that most companies don't even last for 6 months, so it wouldn't be surprising at all if 67% of the companies from 19 years ago are gone.



VGPolyglot said:
DarthVolod said:

More like what's left of the private sector ... only 1/3 of the companies that were there as recently as 1999 still remain. Chavez and Maduro basically declared war on the private sector and only a small fraction of what it was remains. 

What little is left of the private sector will continue to fade away, just give them time. They are doing a fantastic job of running the country into the ground as quickly as they can. 

https://www.inc.com/thomas-koulopoulos/the-biggest-risk-to-your-business-cant-be-eliminated-heres-how-you-can-survive-i.html

That stat seems to suggest that most companies don't even last for 6 months, so it wouldn't be surprising at all if 67% of the companies from 19 years ago are gone.

Did you read the article you linked? Here is a key detail: 

  1. As much as 60 percent of hacked small and medium-sized businesses go out of business after six months.
So are we saying that 67% of Venezuelan companies were hacked now? Well I guess in a matter of speaking there were "hacked" to pieces by Chavez when he nationalized thousands of businesses and large segments of the economy (which is not what even his supporters expected).
What you are saying goes beyond misleading ... I think you are doing some incredible mental gymnastics here to justify the horrors that have been inflicted by an unambiguously socialist dictator. 
Also I checked the US census data as an example. Total number of firms in the US from 1991 to 2008 ... as you can see there was not a drop of 67%....   https://www.census.gov/epcd/susb/1998/us/US--.HTM  

 

Total firms (US)

2008 5,930,132
1991 5,051,025