By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

Cerebralbore101 said:
Puppyroach said:

What are you talking about? The prequel movies are made by the same person that made the OG Star Wars. You are talking about speculations, not canon. Since you are judging the newer films by the measure of what was set up in the older films, you are dependent upon also judging the older films according to what was canon, which is what was set up in the prequel trilogy.

According to your argument, we should also be harsh in our judgement of episode 5 and 6 since they were only planned AFTER it turned out Star Wars was succesful (the "a new hope" was added later and a trilogy wasn´t planned). Speculation is that Vader wasn´t supposed to be Lukes and Leias father and Luke wasn´t supposed to be related to Leia. Or is there some sort of magic time limit of when a sequel is regarded as canon to you?

The prequel movies were made by the same person, but that doesn't stop them from being bad films that reframe the original trilogy in a bad light. I"m talking about things that the EU hints to, which is no longer canon, but was considered canon up until 1999. 

"Since you are judging the newer films by the measure of what was set up in the older films, you are dependent upon also judging the older films according to what was canon, which is what was set up in the prequel trilogy."

No I'm not, because the prequel trilogy didn't come chronologically before the original trilogy.  Those films were made over 20 years after the original trilogy films. There's an entire generation that saw the OG trilogy without needing to contextualize it within the prequel trilogy because the prequel trilogy didn't exist yet. This meme tries to point out the OG trilogy as having the same flaws as this new set of Star Wars films. But those flaws didn't exist in the OG trilogy at all, and were created by the prequel movies. 

According to your argument, we should also be harsh in our judgement of episode 5 and 6 since they were only planned AFTER it turned out Star Wars was succesful (the "a new hope" was added later and a trilogy wasn´t planned). Speculation is that Vader wasn´t supposed to be Lukes and Leias father and Luke wasn´t supposed to be related to Leia. Or is there some sort of magic time limit of when a sequel is regarded as canon to you?

That's comparing apples and oranges. We have decades of EU material, and the films having set up what the Star Wars mythos, and the character of Luke was. Then all that is changed by a completely different writer who had nothing to do with Star Wars. Compare this with a three year wait for Empire Strikes Back, after the first Star Wars film. 

Wait, so the EU material should count but not the prequel movies made by the creator of Star Wars? You just seem to make up arbitrary arguments just to fit your narrative.



Around the Network
Puppyroach said:
Azuren said:

Because Luke fails a lot, is not a perfect Jedi, and required years of training to best an enfeebled Vader. If you want to argue that she isn't a Mary Sue, then maybe do a bit of research on the characters you're comparing her to. 

I am arguing that both she and Luke are Mary Sues/Marty Sues... and she had multitudes of failures in TLJ: with how she handled her connection with Kylo, how she wanted him to the light side, how she dissobeyed Luke on the Island and how she couldn´t stop the First Order. I would still argue that both she and Luke are supposed to be perfect in their personality in many ways but they both make many big mistakes that shape events.

And I'm arguing that if you're going to keep making that statement, you need to actually address my post from a few pages back instead of just whining about me having pointed out genders twice.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

thismeintiel said:
JakDaSnack said:

Considering that you think wanting to back to Jakku doesn’t have anything to do with a Mary Sue, you obviously don’t know what a Mary Sue is.  Also Adam driver isn’t a Sith, that has yet to be stated in this trilogy.  Considering you think Finn overcoming fear is his arc, you weren’t paying attention at all.  You have made it quite clear that you don’t understand these characters.  Please watch the movies again, and do some research before posting again.  It will do us all a favor.

It is you who does not know what a Mary Sue is.  Here's the textbook definition.

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. 

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

That last part is specifically about Star Trek, where the title originated from, but it easily applies here.  She can fly and fix the MF just as good, if not better than Han Solo, no explanation given.  Han and Chewy instantly warm up to her.  Han even asks her to join his crew after knowing her for an extremely short time.  When he dies, Chewy instantly accepts her as the new Han, and the MF is hers, now.  She's just as handy with a blaster as a skilled shot, after only taking one practice shot.  She is just as good, if not better, with a lightsaber than anyone, no explanation or training given.  And she is 100% the most powerful user of the Force, as she can do anything and everything with not only little to no training, but also with little to no concentration/effort.

TEXTBOOK MARY SUE.

I can’t believe I’m getting sucked into this nonsense, it’s like I make one brief statement and Everyone pounces on it. You are scary obsessed with convincing everyone that a movie you didn’t like, isn’t as good as they thought.  It’s sad is what it is.  But since you actually quoted the wiki, I will comment. Most of Rey skills were brought up through actions.  She took out the troopers with a bow staff (hand to hand skills), fixed BB-8(good mechanic) and knew how to pilot vehicles.  She obviously has been at Jakku all her life, and spends most of her days collecting scraps.  Considering her interactions with the dealer, she has learned what parts are important are and what aren’t.  These are all skills that she could easily pick up on while living alone, and fending for herself.  She didn’t need to say a couple lines saying hey “I taught myself these things because I’m awesome” because the movie did a great job of demonstrating her strengths and weaknesses.  When she got on the falcon, the first thing she did was fly it into the ground, before she got a handle on the controls.  When she was in the forest she struggled with hitting her targets with the blaster.  But most importantly, her biggest weakness has been her undying need to find her parents.  She would rather leave Finn and Han to wait at Jakku.  As for the force, it was established in TLJ that the force awakened inside of her.  Luke said that he saw that kinda of power only once before.  That being said, she failed at turning Ben and was powerless against Snoke.  Now perhaps she might be more powerful than Kylo Ren, but the part where they split the lightsaber in two tells me they are equals.  Now I could go into why Kylo Ren wasn’t strong enough to take her down, but I’m typing on a phone lol.

 

 

 



Something...Something...Games...Something

Puppyroach said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

The prequel movies were made by the same person, but that doesn't stop them from being bad films that reframe the original trilogy in a bad light. I"m talking about things that the EU hints to, which is no longer canon, but was considered canon up until 1999. 

"Since you are judging the newer films by the measure of what was set up in the older films, you are dependent upon also judging the older films according to what was canon, which is what was set up in the prequel trilogy."

No I'm not, because the prequel trilogy didn't come chronologically before the original trilogy.  Those films were made over 20 years after the original trilogy films. There's an entire generation that saw the OG trilogy without needing to contextualize it within the prequel trilogy because the prequel trilogy didn't exist yet. This meme tries to point out the OG trilogy as having the same flaws as this new set of Star Wars films. But those flaws didn't exist in the OG trilogy at all, and were created by the prequel movies. 

According to your argument, we should also be harsh in our judgement of episode 5 and 6 since they were only planned AFTER it turned out Star Wars was succesful (the "a new hope" was added later and a trilogy wasn´t planned). Speculation is that Vader wasn´t supposed to be Lukes and Leias father and Luke wasn´t supposed to be related to Leia. Or is there some sort of magic time limit of when a sequel is regarded as canon to you?

That's comparing apples and oranges. We have decades of EU material, and the films having set up what the Star Wars mythos, and the character of Luke was. Then all that is changed by a completely different writer who had nothing to do with Star Wars. Compare this with a three year wait for Empire Strikes Back, after the first Star Wars film. 

Wait, so the EU material should count but not the prequel movies made by the creator of Star Wars? You just seem to make up arbitrary arguments just to fit your narrative.

To be fair, everything in the EU was read and approved by George Lucas. 



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Azuren said:
JakDaSnack said:

Lol, sorry friend I’m not gonna get sucked into this. You and countless others have been arguing about her being a Mary Sue for 2 years.  I just made one quick argument, that you didn’t even quote correctly, and moved on to my main argument which was on Finn.  If you want to talk about Finns arc, go ahead.  But the mary Sue stuff is pointless as nobody seems to be budging one way or the other.

.

Yeah, because no one on your side of the argument wants to actually research what a Mary Sue is. They'd rather resort to semantics ("Lol, he's not a Sith") and use non-arguments ("but Jakku!") than actually address the veritable mountain of evidence that she's a Mary Sue.

Lol



Something...Something...Games...Something

Around the Network
JakDaSnack said:
thismeintiel said:

It is you who does not know what a Mary Sue is.  Here's the textbook definition.

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. 

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

That last part is specifically about Star Trek, where the title originated from, but it easily applies here.  She can fly and fix the MF just as good, if not better than Han Solo, no explanation given.  Han and Chewy instantly warm up to her.  Han even asks her to join his crew after knowing her for an extremely short time.  When he dies, Chewy instantly accepts her as the new Han, and the MF is hers, now.  She's just as handy with a blaster as a skilled shot, after only taking one practice shot.  She is just as good, if not better, with a lightsaber than anyone, no explanation or training given.  And she is 100% the most powerful user of the Force, as she can do anything and everything with not only little to no training, but also with little to no concentration/effort.

TEXTBOOK MARY SUE.

I can’t believe I’m getting sucked into this nonsense, it’s like I make one brief statement and Everyone pounces on it. You are scary obsessed with convincing everyone that a movie you didn’t like, isn’t as good as they thought.  It’s sad is what it is.  But since you actually quoted the wiki, I will comment. Most of Rey skills were brought up through actions.  She took out the troopers with a bow staff (hand to hand skills), fixed BB-8(good mechanic) and knew how to pilot vehicles.  She obviously has been at Jakku all her life, and spends most of her days collecting scraps.  Considering her interactions with the dealer, she has learned what parts are important are and what aren’t.  These are all skills that she could easily pick up on while living alone, and fending for herself.  She didn’t need to say a couple lines saying hey “I taught myself these things because I’m awesome” because the movie did a great job of demonstrating her strengths and weaknesses.  When she got on the falcon, the first thing she did was fly it into the ground, before she got a handle on the controls.  When she was in the forest she struggled with hitting her targets with the blaster.  But most importantly, her biggest weakness has been her undying need to find her parents.  She would rather leave Finn and Han to wait at Jakku.  As for the force, it was established in TLJ that the force awakened inside of her.  Luke said that he saw that kinda of power only once before.  That being said, she failed at turning Ben and was powerless against Snoke.  Now perhaps she might be more powerful than Kylo Ren, but the part where they split the lightsaber in two tells me they are equals.  Now I could go into why Kylo Ren wasn’t strong enough to take her down, but I’m typing on a phone lol.

 

 

 

1. Luke's one gift in life was his pilot skills, which was attained through practice, not by virtue of being a female Protagonist.

2. Luke lived a normal Tatooine life; Rey "struggled" and is therefore more interesting by default.

3. Luke got fucked by Jawas and nearly got fucked in the cantina; Rey kicked the shit out of a group of armed individuals.

4. Luke was roughly on Han's level of skill when manning the guns in the MF; Rey is a goddess with all forms of technology even though that's not how the force works.

5. Luke had to struggle and concentrate to use force pull in the Wampa cave; Rey accidentally used force pull to much greater effectiveness with no effort from a further distance.

6. Luke not only lost his first lightsaber duel, but lost a damn hand in the process and nearly died; Rey humiliated Kylo, whose only disadvantage seemed to be because he was male.

7. Luke never pulled off any high level force techniques until he'd trained for 3 years; Rey accidentally did the mind trick on the second try.

8. Luke's skill with a blaster could be explained by his proficiency for gunning things down in his ship on Tatooine; Rey instinctively got a kill shot the second time she ever fired a blaster and proceeded to get an insane kill:shot ratio.

9. Luke struggled and failed to lift an X-wing, and barely managed to lift three rocks while balancing; Rey lifted rocks like it ain't no thang and does zero effort.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

JakDaSnack said:
Azuren said:

Yeah, because no one on your side of the argument wants to actually research what a Mary Sue is. They'd rather resort to semantics ("Lol, he's not a Sith") and use non-arguments ("but Jakku!") than actually address the veritable mountain of evidence that she's a Mary Sue.

Lol

Glad to know that's the extent of your ability to debate.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Cerebralbore101 said:
Puppyroach said:

What are you talking about? The prequel movies are made by the same person that made the OG Star Wars. You are talking about speculations, not canon. Since you are judging the newer films by the measure of what was set up in the older films, you are dependent upon also judging the older films according to what was canon, which is what was set up in the prequel trilogy.

According to your argument, we should also be harsh in our judgement of episode 5 and 6 since they were only planned AFTER it turned out Star Wars was succesful (the "a new hope" was added later and a trilogy wasn´t planned). Speculation is that Vader wasn´t supposed to be Lukes and Leias father and Luke wasn´t supposed to be related to Leia. Or is there some sort of magic time limit of when a sequel is regarded as canon to you?

The prequel movies were made by the same person, but that doesn't stop them from being bad films that reframe the original trilogy in a bad light. I"m talking about things that the EU hints to, which is no longer canon, but was considered canon up until 1999. 

"Since you are judging the newer films by the measure of what was set up in the older films, you are dependent upon also judging the older films according to what was canon, which is what was set up in the prequel trilogy."

No I'm not, because the prequel trilogy didn't come chronologically before the original trilogy.  Those films were made over 20 years after the original trilogy films. There's an entire generation that saw the OG trilogy without needing to contextualize it within the prequel trilogy because the prequel trilogy didn't exist yet. This meme tries to point out the OG trilogy as having the same flaws as this new set of Star Wars films. But those flaws didn't exist in the OG trilogy at all, and were created by the prequel movies. 

According to your argument, we should also be harsh in our judgement of episode 5 and 6 since they were only planned AFTER it turned out Star Wars was succesful (the "a new hope" was added later and a trilogy wasn´t planned). Speculation is that Vader wasn´t supposed to be Lukes and Leias father and Luke wasn´t supposed to be related to Leia. Or is there some sort of magic time limit of when a sequel is regarded as canon to you?

That's comparing apples and oranges. We have decades of EU material, and the films having set up what the Star Wars mythos, and the character of Luke was. Then all that is changed by a completely different writer who had nothing to do with Star Wars. Compare this with a three year wait for Empire Strikes Back, after the first Star Wars film. 

Actually, the prequels were always "planned".  When George Lucas set out to write Star Wars, he realized that the really exciting stuff didn't happen until well into the story (Episode IV) and that starting with "The Phantom Menace" wouldn't be a good hook to start a franchise.  "A New Hope" was added as a title later, but only because 20th Century Fox didn't think the movie would be successful enough to start a franchise.  Which is the whole reason they gave away the merchandising rights to Lucas which is what made him a billionaire.  Also, Lucas knew that the tech wasn't ready yet for his Clone army sequences.



Azuren said:
Puppyroach said:

I am arguing that both she and Luke are Mary Sues/Marty Sues... and she had multitudes of failures in TLJ: with how she handled her connection with Kylo, how she wanted him to the light side, how she dissobeyed Luke on the Island and how she couldn´t stop the First Order. I would still argue that both she and Luke are supposed to be perfect in their personality in many ways but they both make many big mistakes that shape events.

And I'm arguing that if you're going to keep making that statement, you need to actually address my post from a few pages back instead of just whining about me having pointed out genders twice.

What post are you referring to? And why are you trying to set up som sort of seperate rules for how people debate?



Puppyroach said:
thismeintiel said:

The defense of the Mary Sue thing is probably the one of the most bizarre parts of this.  She fits the description to a T.  But, because people feel the need to like the film and/or because the media and Hollywood have taken the stance that if you call her a Mary Sue you are sexist, people are afraid to label her what she is.  They either give weak reasons, claim Luke is one then (probably the worse offense), or just call you sexist, "You just don't like having a girl in the treehouse."  All strawman arguments.  The truth is, Rey would be just as unlikable as a man.  In fact, it's the reason that people hated the young Anakin in TPM.  Fortunately, Lucas had the insight to fix that in the future episodes, where here they just made it worse, which has brought more people over to the side of her being a Mary Sue.

Really, if we weren't in such a heightened political climate, I think even more people would admit that they recognize she is a Mary Sue, which would probably take their enjoyment of this movie down a notch or two.

From Wikipedia:

Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both genders. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Sue or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly.

In what way does this not apply to both Luke and Rey? I completely agree that she is a Mary Sue, but so is Luke. Rey might be quicker to learn many of the abilities that Luke learned but they are both exceptionally fast compared to even Anakin.

My issue with  alot (not all) of the criticism I have heard is that people claim that she is a Mary Sue because the writers/directors want to make the male characters look bad, yet these critics can´t point to a single event or line of dialogue that would point to this in the movies. I agree with you that the political discourse is toxic right now, but I would claim it comes from both feminists and anti-feminists (ofcourse not all of them) where the analysis of different matters is highly irrational and emotional in nature.

You give the definition, and admit she is a Mary Sue, but can't see the difference between her and Luke?  Seriously.  Luke was flawed.  Optimistic but flawed.  His first two fights, he gets his ass handed to him.  Obi-Wan has to step in to save him.  Even when he was trained by Obi-Wan, didn't believe he could do more than small things with the Force, so was limited to those things.  He didn't overcome that until days/weeks of training with Yoda.  His first confrontation with Vader left him without a hand, because he wasn't skilled enough.  Only until the third movie do we see him become a full Jedi.  And even then, he almost succumbs to his anger, cutting off his father's hand and was about to kill him until he snapped out of it.  And there are many spots where he needed his friends or he would be dead.

The best way to sum up MaRey Sue is that she needs no one.  She can do EVERYTHING either on the same level of the experts or sometimes even better.  Doesn't matter what it is.  Flying a ship she's never flown.  Use a weapon she's never used.  Befriend the main characters she just met (another big sign of a Mary Sue.)  For some reason, after spending just a few days with Chewy, she can perfectly understand him.  Use the Force, which she barely knew about until now.  She freaking picks up a large ass pile of boulders with no effort whatsoever, with no training in doing so, and when Luke would have used just about all of his energy to do so.  She is a Mary Sue.  Luke so obviously is not.

I think the video d21lewis posted says it all.  I suggest watching it.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 27 December 2017