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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

Star Wars rip offs (err ... "borrows") liberally from sources too, the first movie is a direct take on Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress and many other obvious archetypes.

Cameron's strength is not being original, it's pure, sheer, execution. Anyone can come up with an idea, and there were many other films about Titanic for example before.

Doesn't meant shit if you can't execute and engage the audience, and that's where he is far and away beyond a lot of filmmakers.



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Soundwave said:
Star Wars rip offs (err ... "borrows") liberally from sources too, the first movie is a direct take on Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress and many other obvious archetypes.

Cameron's strength is not being original, it's pure, sheer, execution. Anyone can come up with an idea, and there were many other films about Titanic for example before.

Doesn't meant shit if you can't execute and engage the audience, and that's where he is far and away beyond a lot of filmmakers.

You're missing a lot of the material that inspired Star Wars. However, it would be folly to say that the entire epic is not creative; it would be ridiculously disingenuous to say that Titanic or FernGully Dances 3D (err ... Avatar) were more creative.

If you're going to use Lucas as a bar for Cameron, I'd recommend a MUCH higher bar: Lucas just isn't a very good director, and JJ did a MUCH better job than him. Johnson, however, put together a string of set pieces like boss stages in an RPG: kill the mobs, then have an awesome encounter. The lack of cohesion isn't shocking, considering Looper was literally a looping narrative.

Saying "anyone can come up with an idea" as a reason to tout Cameron is more or less absurd. The most common Hollywood comment today is that THERE ARE NO NEW IDEAS. Clearly, not everyone can come up with an idea, much less a good idea. See...the billions of remakes that infuriate filmgoers, all the time.

Cameron is very talented, and I'm surprised you mention Alien or Terminator yet? He used to be very creative, and those movies were far better than the Rian-esque blockbusters that he is now famous for: a sinking boat and In Space, Costner can't save native peoples.



Insidb said:
Soundwave said:
Star Wars rip offs (err ... "borrows") liberally from sources too, the first movie is a direct take on Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress and many other obvious archetypes.

Cameron's strength is not being original, it's pure, sheer, execution. Anyone can come up with an idea, and there were many other films about Titanic for example before.

Doesn't meant shit if you can't execute and engage the audience, and that's where he is far and away beyond a lot of filmmakers.

You're missing a lot of the material that inspired Star Wars. However, it would be folly to say that the entire epic is not creative; it would be ridiculously disingenuous to say that Titanic or FernGully Dances 3D (err ... Avatar) were more creative.

If you're going to use Lucas as a bar for Cameron, I'd recommend a MUCH higher bar: Lucas just isn't a very good director, and JJ did a MUCH better job than him. Johnson, however, put together a string of set pieces like boss stages in an RPG: kill the mobs, then have an awesome encounter. The lack of cohesion isn't shocking, considering Looper was literally a looping narrative.

Saying "anyone can come up with an idea" as a reason to tout Cameron is more or less absurd. The most common Hollywood comment today is that THERE ARE NO NEW IDEAS. Clearly, not everyone can come up with an idea, much less a good idea. See...the billions of remakes that infuriate filmgoers, all the time.

Cameron is very talented, and I'm surprised you mention Alien or Terminator yet? He used to be very creative, and those movies were far better than the Rian-esque blockbusters that he is now famous for: a sinking boat and In Space, Costner can't save native peoples.

To me it seems he's more mad at the fact that his favorite director, Cameron, has not created a franchise that has the same reach and cultural impact as SW.  Or maybe that film goers haven't realized his sheer genius, yet?  Why he is choosing to take that frustration out on SW fans who don't like this new film is beyond me, though.

Cameron is a good director, but he does keep reusing the same tired "rich/military bad, poor/natives good," with little actual nuance.  Lately he has been mainly known for his two event films.  Why he is choosing one that was criticized for not being original, that had no true lasting effect on the culture, to create a franchise 9 years too late is, again, beyond me.



thismeintiel said:
Insidb said:

You're missing a lot of the material that inspired Star Wars. However, it would be folly to say that the entire epic is not creative; it would be ridiculously disingenuous to say that Titanic or FernGully Dances 3D (err ... Avatar) were more creative.

If you're going to use Lucas as a bar for Cameron, I'd recommend a MUCH higher bar: Lucas just isn't a very good director, and JJ did a MUCH better job than him. Johnson, however, put together a string of set pieces like boss stages in an RPG: kill the mobs, then have an awesome encounter. The lack of cohesion isn't shocking, considering Looper was literally a looping narrative.

Saying "anyone can come up with an idea" as a reason to tout Cameron is more or less absurd. The most common Hollywood comment today is that THERE ARE NO NEW IDEAS. Clearly, not everyone can come up with an idea, much less a good idea. See...the billions of remakes that infuriate filmgoers, all the time.

Cameron is very talented, and I'm surprised you mention Alien or Terminator yet? He used to be very creative, and those movies were far better than the Rian-esque blockbusters that he is now famous for: a sinking boat and In Space, Costner can't save native peoples.

To me it seems he's more mad at the fact that his favorite director, Cameron, has not created a franchise that has the same reach and cultural impact as SW.  Or maybe that film goers haven't realized his sheer genius, yet?  Why he is choosing to take that frustration out on SW fans who don't like this new film is beyond me, though.

Cameron is a good director, but he does keep reusing the same tired "rich/military bad, poor/natives good," with little actual nuance.  Lately he has been mainly known for his two event films.  Why he is choosing one that was criticized for not being original, that had no true lasting effect on the culture, to create a franchise 9 years too late is, again, beyond me.

I think we have realized his genius, right? He has 2 franchises that are somewhat ingrained in our culture, too: Aliens and Terminator. So many franchises have tried to emulate those films, and Terminator gave us mainstream touchstones like "I'll be back," Skynet, and evil, runaway AI. Titanic isn't a franchise, but it gave us "I'm king of the world," "I'll never let go," Celine Dion, and "Paint me like one of your French girls." Avatar just...didn't.

The inability to sustain his two biggest blockbuster's fervor is purely circumstance and may be why he tried to re-float the Titanic lol.



Original isn't the be all, Terminator wasn't original, but it was brilliant along with its sequel. Carmeron stated he "ripped off" Ellison, which is why the credits had to acknowledge this. I love Terminator, but the idea was taken from elsewhere doesn't affect that.



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Nymeria said:
Original isn't the be all, Terminator wasn't original, but it was brilliant along with its sequel. Carmeron stated he "ripped off" Ellison, which is why the credits had to acknowledge this. I love Terminator, but the idea was taken from elsewhere doesn't affect that.

I agree. Of course, not many people know about that. Still, no one is knocking Cameron's ability as as a director, or the excellence of Terminator 1&2. Really, I don't know why Soundwave turned this into SW VS Cameron. This is about TLJ failing with much of its audience and falling greatly from safe expectations. 



Nymeria said:
Original isn't the be all, Terminator wasn't original, but it was brilliant along with its sequel. Carmeron stated he "ripped off" Ellison, which is why the credits had to acknowledge this. I love Terminator, but the idea was taken from elsewhere doesn't affect that.

Agreed. Terminator 2 it's pretty good and I enjoyed a lot Titanic.

 

Ignored Avatar, thought.



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thismeintiel said:
Nymeria said:
Original isn't the be all, Terminator wasn't original, but it was brilliant along with its sequel. Carmeron stated he "ripped off" Ellison, which is why the credits had to acknowledge this. I love Terminator, but the idea was taken from elsewhere doesn't affect that.

I agree. Of course, not many people know about that. Still, no one is knocking Cameron's ability as as a director, or the excellence of Terminator 1&2. Really, I don't know why Soundwave turned this into SW VS Cameron. This is about TLJ failing with much of its audience and falling greatly from safe expectations. 

Star Wars has been failing since the 1990s, all I'm saying is this is nothing new. 

Cameron was brought up just to illustrate how he's kicked Star Wars' ass twice with two larger cultural phenomenons. 

And Avatar is not Cameron's best work, but it's easily on par if not better than The Force Awakens (you want to talk about unoriginal, lol) or The Last Jedi and better than all three prequels. 

Star Wars has been crapping the bed since 1997 when Lucas decided to make a bunch of dumb changes to the original movies, things people still hate today, that went right into The Phantom Menace which is the biggest movie disappointment (relative to the hype it had) probably ever and somehow Attack of the Clones managed to be worse. 



Soundwave said:
thismeintiel said:

I agree. Of course, not many people know about that. Still, no one is knocking Cameron's ability as as a director, or the excellence of Terminator 1&2. Really, I don't know why Soundwave turned this into SW VS Cameron. This is about TLJ failing with much of its audience and falling greatly from safe expectations. 

Star Wars has been failing since the 1990s, all I'm saying is this is nothing new. 

Cameron was brought up just to illustrate how he's kicked Star Wars' ass twice with two larger cultural phenomenons. 

And Avatar is not Cameron's best work, but it's easily on par if not better than The Force Awakens (you want to talk about unoriginal, lol) or The Last Jedi and better than all three prequels. 

Star Wars has been crapping the bed since 1997 when Lucas decided to make a bunch of dumb changes to the original movies, things people still hate today, that went right into The Phantom Menace which is the biggest movie disappointment (relative to the hype it had) probably ever and somehow Attack of the Clones managed to be worse. 

TFA completely invalidates this argument, which is why people aren't taking this seriously anymore. Most of your points have been picked apart by very credible arguments. You can't just say, "but episodes 1-3" and have it justify your other points. TFA, RO, and TLJ all won their box office years. TFA is the #1 domestic film OF ALL TIME. It's the #2 film OF ALL TIME. You can't talk about originality, when most of Cameron's works have apparently been lifted from other source material. You can't talk cultural phenomenon, when Star Wars has been part of culture for over 40 YEARS.

ALL of Cameron's films have made about $6.5B, while the Star Wars films have made nearly $9B. You know what, though, that's just the films: Star Wars, as a franchise, has made nearly $45B. It's clearly not "failing" or "crapping the bed," because 8 more films are slated and it's been making billions since the prequels.



Insidb said:
Soundwave said:

Star Wars has been failing since the 1990s, all I'm saying is this is nothing new. 

Cameron was brought up just to illustrate how he's kicked Star Wars' ass twice with two larger cultural phenomenons. 

And Avatar is not Cameron's best work, but it's easily on par if not better than The Force Awakens (you want to talk about unoriginal, lol) or The Last Jedi and better than all three prequels. 

Star Wars has been crapping the bed since 1997 when Lucas decided to make a bunch of dumb changes to the original movies, things people still hate today, that went right into The Phantom Menace which is the biggest movie disappointment (relative to the hype it had) probably ever and somehow Attack of the Clones managed to be worse. 

TFA completely invalidates this argument, which is why people aren't taking this seriously anymore. Most of your points have been picked apart by very credible arguments. You can't just say, "but episodes 1-3" and have it justify your other points. TFA, RO, and TLJ all won their box office years. TFA is the #1 domestic film OF ALL TIME. It's the #2 film OF ALL TIME. You can't talk about originality, when most of Cameron's works have apparently been lifted from other source material. You can't talk cultural phenomenon, when Star Wars has been part of culture for over 40 YEARS.

ALL of Cameron's films have made about $6.5B, while the Star Wars films have made nearly $9B. You know what, though, that's just the films: Star Wars, as a franchise, has made nearly $45B. It's clearly not "failing" or "crapping the bed," because 8 more films are slated and it's been making billions since the prequels.

In the context of this thread, my points are fair. Star Wars is not some "never miss" franchise that hasn't had multiple previous entries that have been poorly received by large groups of people. It has been over shadowed multiple times by other film properties too. I'm not saying Star Wars isn't popular (obviously it is), but this notion put forth by the OP that it's always been this holy, unsurmountable, infallible IP until The Last Jedi is laughable. 

There really probably hasn't been a truly great Star Wars films since the early 1980s, The Force Awakens is probably the best of the bunch since then and I'd say it's no better than something like Avatar, probably a tad worse. 

Also if you look at Star Wars film box office post 1977, TFA and TPM are outliers because they have a decade+ of pent up hype/build-up you look at other Star Wars films without benefit of that and there's a steep drop off in box office, so that's been happening for years now, The Last Jedi is if anything just falling into line with that. 

Just for the record, while (predictably) a large step down from the OT, I do think the Disney Star Wars films are still a good deal better than the prequels. The Disney movies at least recapture much of the grittier feel of the original Star Wars films whereas the prequels had gone full cartoon/cheese/kiddie tone that didn't feel like the originals at all. The acting, dialogue, scene staging doesn't feel like an embarrassing junior high play. At least the characters in these new movies feel like real people in a lived in universe and not some kid's toy box come to life, for that I'll give them credit. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 21 March 2018