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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

thismeintiel said:
Nymeria said:
I think Avatar 2 will be one of the most interesting upcoming releases to see if that was a flash in the pan or if people really do love that world and characters. I know everyone seemingly saw it, but outside of box office I never hear it referenced, quoted, or brought up.

Definitely be interesting to track. And you're right. Other than occasionally talking about how successful it was, Avatar is not referenced in any way. No one remembers the characters names. No one quotes lines from the film, if there even are any memorable quotes in the first place. Kids don't dress up as Navi (the only name I remember from it) for Halloween or play with the toys. That's pretty bad when movies that don't even make half of what it did that have stayed in the cultural consciousness for decades.

And it's weird that Cameron has just basically given up on creating anything new and instead wants to make Avatar sequels for the remainder of his life. I could see the 2nd one making maybe half of that of the first, especially without the 3D hype behind it and China being more selective with the films they watch. Doesn't help that the sequel, that no one was clambering for, is coming 9 years too late. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBJXQJJavX2VueOEqGSaBNsGaHZREWEr

You should most definitely watch these videos. These are the absolute best critique videos I have seen regarding the last jedi.



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Insidb said:
Azuren said:

Avatar is a rip-off of Dances with Wolves.

This is a very fair assessment, but DwW wasn't set in a jungle inhabited by spiritual forces.

You'd have to ask Cameron if he saw one or both of them.

Iirc, Cameron has gone on record stating it's Dances with Wolves in space.



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OTBWY said:
thismeintiel said:

Definitely be interesting to track. And you're right. Other than occasionally talking about how successful it was, Avatar is not referenced in any way. No one remembers the characters names. No one quotes lines from the film, if there even are any memorable quotes in the first place. Kids don't dress up as Navi (the only name I remember from it) for Halloween or play with the toys. That's pretty bad when movies that don't even make half of what it did that have stayed in the cultural consciousness for decades.

And it's weird that Cameron has just basically given up on creating anything new and instead wants to make Avatar sequels for the remainder of his life. I could see the 2nd one making maybe half of that of the first, especially without the 3D hype behind it and China being more selective with the films they watch. Doesn't help that the sequel, that no one was clambering for, is coming 9 years too late. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBJXQJJavX2VueOEqGSaBNsGaHZREWEr

You should most definitely watch these videos. These are the absolute best critique videos I have seen regarding the last jedi.

Just watched the first vid.  Good stuff.



Azuren said:
Insidb said:

This is a very fair assessment, but DwW wasn't set in a jungle inhabited by spiritual forces.

You'd have to ask Cameron if he saw one or both of them.

Iirc, Cameron has gone on record stating it's Dances with Wolves in space.

I doubt it, because he's constantly fending off idea theft lawsuits lol.



Did this come out on video yet? I know a few sites have been running stories a lot on it, so I thought maybe it was out (I absolutely loathed the movie and it all but ruined the series for me, so I haven't paid close attention).

Anyway, is there any chance the OP would post sales figures for home sales, too? I'd love to see how those compare to TFA.

I have no idea how the can possibly do episode 9 to fix everything from 8, but I'm hoping it does so bad in home sales that they at least stop going the direction they are. I've never been so disappointed in a movie.



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epicurean said:
Did this come out on video yet? I know a few sites have been running stories a lot on it, so I thought maybe it was out (I absolutely loathed the movie and it all but ruined the series for me, so I haven't paid close attention).

Anyway, is there any chance the OP would post sales figures for home sales, too? I'd love to see how those compare to TFA.

I have no idea how the can possibly do episode 9 to fix everything from 8, but I'm hoping it does so bad in home sales that they at least stop going the direction they are. I've never been so disappointed in a movie.

It releases next week. I'm sure that's why supporters of the film are trying to push it, again.

I don't think there is a site that actually tracks or has access to home sales numbers. At least not to my knowledge. I'm sure services do track those sales, but those numbers would have to come from Disney,  and trust me, if they are disappointing we won't ever know about them.

As for Ep 9, I don't have high hopes for it. I think it's going to be a clusterfuck of a film as they try to address problems with Ep 8, as well as unanswered questions/developments from Ep 7, so that the film doesn't see another big drop. I'm most likely not going to watch it in theaters. And if half the people who say they are done with the new trilogy actually stays home, this movie is definitely opening under $200M.



Soundwave said:
Insidb said:

1) Who is "Joesph?"

2) Cameron was always better than Lucas, by A LOT.

3) Don't hate on JJ; he's an excellent director.

4) As in "global audiences?"

5) I'll give until TFA.

6) Name the movies that outperformed Star Wars films in the same year.

7) Avatar never was ingrained in pop culture; it was a 3D film pop culture moment.

8) Jar Jar had a MASSIVE impact; people just hate him lol. After him, Kylo Ren has become something of a weird phenomenon.

Cameron is better than Lucas, Abrams, or Johnson. Fact is Cameron is probably the top tier action-adventure film director, his vision, his control of huge action scenes, and his ability to ground and create relatable characters in fantastical scenarios is simply unmatched. It's popular to hate on him because he's had such massive success, but his film's work, I can watch Titanic or even Avatar on a crappy SD feed on TV and those movies still work. 

I don't know what Avatar 2 will do, but I'd say there's a good chance it's a better movie than any of the Star Wars prequels or sequels/spin-offs because Cameron is simply a better director and better storyteller, and that's not to crap on JJ Abrams, but he simply isn't on that level (very few are). 

Jar-Jar was a big deal to angry Star Wars fans, normal people didn't care much, in 1999 I was kinda stunned at how quickly the "popular conversation" of movies turned to other films like The Sixth Sense, Blair Witch Project, and even American Pie (the kid humps an apple pie in it!), lol. "I see dead people" and "I shall call him ... Mini-Me" were the most quotable lines of that summer. 

For the general public Star Wars is still riding largely the coat tails of the original trilogy with Vader, Yoda, Han/Luke/Leia being by far the most popular characters. No one in these new movies is close.

Spider-Man destroyed AOTC in 2002, ROTS was no.1 for 2005, but is only the 6th biggest film of the decade getting beaten even by Transformers 2 (lol). The Star Wars sequels have huge drops when they don't have like 10+ years of pent up hype. 

Revenge of the Sith set multiple box office records at time of release, and to this day, it still holds 2 of them.  Expanding your scope of comparison to movies that opened years later when Foreign Grosses started to become a higher % of worldwide than domestic is a significant goal post move on your part.  Transformers 2, by your logic, also humbled Finding Nemo, The Lord of the Rings Return of the King, Spider-Man 2, The Passion of the Christ, Forrest Gump, Iron Man, Return of the Jedi.  



It's impossible to track home sales for two reasons - one, there simply isn't an outlet like there used to be in the DVD heyday, and two, the market is shifting heavily towards digital, so we'd never know how much lower numbers were being made up by digital sales.



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Insidb said:
Soundwave said:

Cameron is better than Lucas, Abrams, or Johnson. (1) Fact is Cameron is probably the top tier action-adventure film director, his vision, his control of huge action scenes, and his ability to ground and create relatable characters in fantastical scenarios is simply unmatched. It's popular to hate on him because he's had such massive success, but his film's work, I can watch Titanic or even Avatar on a crappy SD feed on TV and those movies still work. (2) 

I don't know what Avatar 2 will do, but I'd say there's a good chance it's a better movie than any of the Star Wars prequels or sequels/spin-offs because Cameron is simply a better director and better storyteller, (3) and that's not to crap on JJ Abrams, but he simply isn't on that level (very few are). 

Jar-Jar was a big deal to angry Star Wars fans, normal people didn't care much, (4) in 1999 I was kinda stunned at how quickly the "popular conversation" of movies turned to other films like The Sixth Sense, Blair Witch Project, and even American Pie (the kid humps an apple pie in it!), lol. "I see dead people" and "I shall call him ... Mini-Me" were the most quotable lines of that summer. 

For the general public Star Wars is still riding largely the coat tails of the original trilogy with Vader, Yoda, Han/Luke/Leia being by far the most popular characters. No one in these new movies is close. (5)

Spider-Man destroyed AOTC in 2002, (6) ROTS was no.1 for 2005, but is only the 6th biggest film of the decade getting beaten even by Transformers 2 (lol). The Star Wars sequels have huge drops when they don't have like 10+ years of pent up hype. 

1) Probably.

2) I can't watch Avatar, because it is a crappy feed.

3) Maybe Avatar 2 will be Anastasia or Iron Giant in space? Once you've made $2B ripping off a non-Disney cartoon, you might as well go back to the well. 

4) The guy behind you is talking shit about Jar-Jar right now.

5) That's because those characters were larger-than-life, heroic icons, unlike the any of the characters in Avatar that no human alive can name.

6) So you found 1 film...out of 8; even the spinoff was #1 in the US and #2 WW...bring on the "humbling!" 

7) You should be ashamed of yourself...all farce and no force: I'm telling your dad.

Ever notice how Avatar is the only major film that is called unoriginal, despite being more original than the vast majority of blockbusters? I wonder why that is?



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Jumpin said:
Insidb said:

1) Probably.

2) I can't watch Avatar, because it is a crappy feed.

3) Maybe Avatar 2 will be Anastasia or Iron Giant in space? Once you've made $2B ripping off a non-Disney cartoon, you might as well go back to the well. 

4) The guy behind you is talking shit about Jar-Jar right now.

5) That's because those characters were larger-than-life, heroic icons, unlike the any of the characters in Avatar that no human alive can name.

6) So you found 1 film...out of 8; even the spinoff was #1 in the US and #2 WW...bring on the "humbling!" 

7) You should be ashamed of yourself...all farce and no force: I'm telling your dad.

Ever notice how Avatar is the only major film that is called unoriginal, despite being more original than the vast majority of blockbusters? I wonder why that is?

TROLOLOLOLOLOL:

https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Your-Guide-James-Cameron-Many-Avatar-Lawsuits-Which-Might-Actually-Work-36439.html

https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-history-of-plagiarism-claims-against-james-cameron-690974718

 

Also, "there remains a nagging suspicion that the plot of Avatar borrowed more surreptitiously from less litigable source material: the epic Kevin Costner western Dances With Wolves or the animated musical FernGully: The Last Rainforest, for instance, both of which feature native tribes who come under threat from outsiders and a central romance between a local female and a sympathetic member of the invading race:"

https://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2017/jun/06/avatar-why-no-one-cares-about-a-sequel-to-the-worlds-most-successful-movie

Last edited by Insidb - on 20 March 2018