Forums - Nintendo Discussion - What I hope FE Echoes doesn't mean for FE 2018

TheBraveGallade said:
This game was made increadibly faithful to the original. The game also suffers from thev2nd game syndrone that most ninty games have, qhich is the reason its so wierd. That said most of the new mechanics won't carry over. Large amount of supports, triangle, playable avatar (seriously how alm and celica was portrayed maked me wish for an avatar) and pair ups will probably be back by the next game.
That said fully VA'd dialogue should return which is going to be just awesome.

You serious there ? Celica definitely had it's questionable moments during chapter 4 but in no way it was horrible ... + Alm is definitely one of the good lord the franchise had yet, specially by being similar to Ike.

And after the utterly chaos that was Corin, nobody would want to go back to an avatar again, unless you need that self-inserted motif to get into the game.



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Lonely_Dolphin said:
Mar1217 said:
You might think it's weird but I would like them to not use the triangle weapon system in the next FE :P +

I love the way magic is used, it's basically an effective risk vs reward system.

And on the + side again, Berkut is the best vilain out of the FE 3DS games, coupled with a great reimagining of the story and stellar voice acting, I was quite for this game being the first time I experienced the FE franchise :)

What do ya have against the weapon triangle? :O

Storywise, I'm not even done yet but I'd already say it's better than Fates, though really that's not saying much lel. I'm gonna wait until I see what the villians motives and overall plan is first before comparing to Awakening. Berkut seems like a stock evil because evil guy so far, atleast Ferdinand had somewhat of a reason, but eh I'll see!

Nothing. It's just that I prefer the simplier system from Echoes, feels like more like a classic RPG.



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Mar1217 said:
TheBraveGallade said:
This game was made increadibly faithful to the original. The game also suffers from thev2nd game syndrone that most ninty games have, qhich is the reason its so wierd. That said most of the new mechanics won't carry over. Large amount of supports, triangle, playable avatar (seriously how alm and celica was portrayed maked me wish for an avatar) and pair ups will probably be back by the next game.
That said fully VA'd dialogue should return which is going to be just awesome.

You serious there ? Celica definitely had it's questionable moments during chapter 4 but in no way it was horrible ... + Alm is definitely one of the good lord the franchise had yet, specially by being similar to Ike.

And after the utterly chaos that was Corin, nobody would want to go back to an avatar again, unless you need that self-inserted motif to get into the game.

I dunno...Corrin was definitely an idiot at times, but I'm not sure anything they do comes close to Celica agreeing to Jedah's terms in terms of sheer stupidity.

O/T: For me, Echoes is a mixed bag, and definitely suffers from being a faithful remake of an older game. I think the game definitely would've benefitted from relaxing how authentic it was in places, especially when it comes to some of the map design (Nuibaba's Manor is without question on a short list for worst FE map I've ever played). There are some elements I really like; the addition of postgame content is fantastic and the way the story can change depending on whether you save or fail to rescue certain characters is excellent, but overall it just feels held back by being such a faithful replica of a much older title.



The pair up and class systems from Awakening were part of what ruined the game, we can only hope they'll get rid of it from now on. But it's only hope...

"Oh, a new battle. I guess I will just pair up my avatar with the story's hero and put them on the middle of the map. They have no weakness and only ultimate skills thanks to the 20 reclassing they went through anyway, so I guess all the enemies with a dumb as **** AI will jump on them to commit suicide nicely. Here, battle won!"

"SRPG"....

 

I agree with what has been said: Radiant Dawn is what a Fire Emblem game should be. That's it.



Faelco said:

The pair up and class systems from Awakening were part of what ruined the game, we can only hope they'll get rid of it from now on. But it's only hope...

"Oh, a new battle. I guess I will just pair up my avatar with the story's hero and put them on the middle of the map. They have no weakness and only ultimate skills thanks to the 20 reclassing they went through anyway, so I guess all the enemies with a dumb as **** AI will jump on them to commit suicide nicely. Here, battle won!"

"SRPG"....

I mean, if you've leveled up enough times to get through multiple reclasses, then chances are your character is going to be stupidly overpowered regardless of whether they're paired up or not. That sounds like a complaint more at being able to grind than the pair up mechanic. And, well, if you don't want broken characters, then...maybe just don't grind.

Anyway, I'd be against pulling pair up entirely. It was seriously improved in Fates and added another layer of complexity to the strategy (choosing whether to push for more offensive or defensive options). If they ironed out the last few wrinkles for FE 16, I'd be genuinely excited for the possibilities.



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Platina said:
This is a remake of an old game so it's not likely indicative of what the next game will be

Interestingly enough, this game reminded me what set the original games apart from Awakening and Fates and I really liked it, was a breath of fresh air, despite being a remake. You need to keep in mind that this is a remake of the game. Newer mechanics such as reclassing/map design/pair ups aren't added or changed because of the remake. Killing the Cantors kills all of their summons so aim for those.

> Double promotions and promoting system
Rather than grinding up to 20 and then promoting, you have the option to promote at level 10 with bigger stat boosts if your character was RNG screwed. The option is still there to grind to 20 (which I did) but it truly incentivize promoting early. With double promotions, promoting early isn't too bad either since you won't be level capped easily. The real grind of the newer games is the reclassing and skill system. You need to grind much more whereas here you can get all the skills with a single level up path. Being unable to reclass makes your characters specific and specialized so there are strategies, though Dread Fighters are just as broken in this game as in Awakening.

> Weapons and Magic
The classic triangle is nice for strategies and when Fates threw all weapons into the mix, it made this a bit weird. Magics were truly the strongest in the original FE games, so having it drain your life and having a fixed accuracy percentage remedies this. Bows are a bit broken but at least weight and accuracy isn't perfect. The equipment slot is a really nice addition, though you probably will just go with rings

The problem is getting to the Cantors, and they can be pretty tough on their own. But yeah I know it's a remake, and I guess I can understand them wanting to stay faithful, especially if this is indeed a one of thing. I do like how different it is yet still being a good game in it's own right, I'd just rather this not become the standard for the series is all.

I don't see how not being able to reclass means there's more strategys, only the opposite. For example, on my Lunatic Conquest run, I wanted to fully take advantage of Laslow's personal skill, combining it with Rally Skill which he naturally gets on promotion, and Rally Speed n Amaterasu from his waifu Azura, essentially making him a rally-heal bot. Without reclassing options this strat (among so, so many) wouldn't be possible. Getting him to that point also affects my strategy during chapters since I have to make sure he and Azura are fighting together enough. Also magic in Echoes is still pretty OP I'd say, HP cost is negligible and it ignores terrain bonuses. It's definitely OP in Awakening aswell, so if what you say about older games is true then Fates is the only time magic was actually balanced funnily enough.

 

uran10 said: 

"watered down pair ups" is how supports were originally done and honestly how I prefer them. Honestly, I prefer the older games. If I to say what the perfect FE game is it would be radiant dawn due to the great maps and the way everything was handled. Nice difficulty too.

Haven't played the older games, but I'm guessing my feeling on them wouldn't be too much different from Echoes. Conquest is my ideal Fire Emblem, story aside of course!

 

Mar1217 said: 

You serious there ? Celica definitely had it's questionable moments during chapter 4 but in no way it was horrible ... + Alm is definitely one of the good lord the franchise had yet, specially by being similar to Ike.

And after the utterly chaos that was Corin, nobody would want to go back to an avatar again, unless you need that self-inserted motif to get into the game.

I do! Not for that reason of course, but for gameplay. Having a unit that you can choose their stats and class is great.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
Mar1217 said: 

You serious there ? Celica definitely had it's questionable moments during chapter 4 but in no way it was horrible ... + Alm is definitely one of the good lord the franchise had yet, specially by being similar to Ike.

And after the utterly chaos that was Corin, nobody would want to go back to an avatar again, unless you need that self-inserted motif to get into the game.

I do! Not for that reason of course, but for gameplay. Having a unit that you can choose their stats and class is great.

Ah ... I mean customizing the settings you want for your avatar is good, I thought you meant it another way :P



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MTZehvor said:
Faelco said:

The pair up and class systems from Awakening were part of what ruined the game, we can only hope they'll get rid of it from now on. But it's only hope...

"Oh, a new battle. I guess I will just pair up my avatar with the story's hero and put them on the middle of the map. They have no weakness and only ultimate skills thanks to the 20 reclassing they went through anyway, so I guess all the enemies with a dumb as **** AI will jump on them to commit suicide nicely. Here, battle won!"

"SRPG"....

I mean, if you've leveled up enough times to get through multiple reclasses, then chances are your character is going to be stupidly overpowered regardless of whether they're paired up or not. That sounds like a complaint more at being able to grind than the pair up mechanic. And, well, if you don't want broken characters, then...maybe just don't grind.

Anyway, I'd be against pulling pair up entirely. It was seriously improved in Fates and added another layer of complexity to the strategy (choosing whether to push for more offensive or defensive options). If they ironed out the last few wrinkles for FE 16, I'd be genuinely excited for the possibilities.

I've put 2 complaints in one comment, but you can win the whole game without ever thinking if you just put your 2 best characters in a pair, without even grinding.  And grind or no grind, the multi-class system makes it too easy to erase the weaknesses of the characters. In older games, even when your characters where overpowered, they kept their weaknesses and didn't become that broken.

 

Only the Lunatic mode asked me to grind a bit, because I wanted to try different characters, but you don't even need to grind to get broken characters. The gameplay itself is broken anyway...

 

@OP: You should try Radiant Dawn or even its prequel Path of Radiance. You might change your mind on what is the best FE. If you like strategy and challenge... 



Lonely_Dolphin said:

Stuff

Linear Class: I actually preferred how Echoes did this. Part of the appeal of Fire Emblem is how unique the characters feel, which applies to stat growths, skills, and classes as well, so this is something I don't necessarily want too many options with. Shadow Dragon was probably the weakest entry in the franchise for me...and part of that was because the completely open reclass system threw away a lot of character individuality, and you were basically left with generic faces you could assign to any class you want.

That being said...I'm okay with branching promotions, though I'd personally prefer multiple tiers like Echoes incorporated.

Pair-Ups: I'm okay with this provided its either nerfed or the enemies make use of it, like in Fates. The system was broken as all hell in Awakening. I prefer the system in Echoes, but this does provide a nice way to grind supports, which was pretty awful in older games.

Grinding/Cantors: Agreed with you here. Grinding is almost never fun for me, and while I loved Echoes, this was something that really could have used some refinement.

Lack of Weapon Triangle: Agreed, though I can't see this being an issue moving forward anyway, as you said.

Maps/AI: I agree Conquest was superior here, the more variety the better.

Bulky Units: Probably agree...never thought much about this one but units did feel a lot tankier. Not a huge deal for me I guess.

------------------------------

Outside of what you said, some things I'd like to see return or change in FE 2018:

 

  • Nice compelling story with a conflict that actually makes sense. Awakening felt too generic, and Fates was convoluted and filled with plot holes. Echoes was probably the first time I cared about the conflict in a Fire Emblem since Radiant Dawn. For a game series with war as the focus...this is kind of a problem!
  • My Unit/Tactician as an observer character, not a key story character. Robin was pushing this a bit already, but Corrin had no idea what he/she wanted to be. Having an avatar in a game like Fire Emblem is unnecessary (I'd rather take an established MC any day)...but having an avatar with an established backstory doesn't even make sense, and contradicts the point of having an avatar in the first place. It was like Fates was going after two rabbits and catching neither. Blazing Sword had the best inclusion of an avatar so far...i.e...basically just watching from the sidelines and almost never showing up.
  • No more children! I like the romance options, but the additions of kids just makes me cringe, especially when their implementation is as contrived as it was in Fates. If they are brought back, find some good story reason for it, and not just create a random other dimension to fast-bake them into adults. Gosh what sad pointless lives those kids in Fates led. /rant
  • Depth of Supports vs. Breadth. I get why Awakening and Fates went with a wider variety of support conversations...but to me, the GBA titles had the best and most compelling supports in the series so far. Hector/Lyndis and Eliwood/Ninian were fantastic, and even changed the outcome of the story in Blazing Sword. It was a disappointment to go from such compelling support conversations to "Oh I'm shy I want to be more outgoing....oops it's hard to not be shy...I guess it's okay to be shy...let's get married." I'd much rather have a few well written pairings than a million trivial ones.
  • Ability to auto-promote at level 21. Enough said...I just prefer this over having to wait for Master seals to show up.
  • Weapon durability to return. I know this is annoying, but I prefer it over the stat debuff mechanic in Fates. Inventory management adds a certain managerial charm to the game that I enjoyed.

 

I could probably think of some more things...but this is what's important enough to come to mind right now. For the record, I do enjoy Awakening and Fates...but they both brought about mechanics I really didn't like...and well...I'm very critical of this franchise I love so much. Overall, I'd say Path of Radiance is the gold standard I hold for the franchise, but that's not to say there aren't mechanics out there that could improve it.

Last edited by Super_Boom - on 28 November 2017

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Super_Boom said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

Stuff

Linear Class: I actually preferred how Echoes did this. Part of the appeal of Fire Emblem is how unique the characters feel, which applies to stat growths, skills, and classes as well, so this is something I don't necessarily want too many options with. Shadow Dragon was probably the weakest entry in the franchise for me...and part of that was because the completely open reclass system threw away a lot of character individuality, and you were basically left with generic faces you could assign to any class you want.

That being said...I'm okay with branching promotions, though I'd personally prefer multiple tiers like Echoes incorporated.

Pair-Ups: I'm okay with this provided its either nerfed or the enemies make use of it, like in Fates. The system was broken as all hell in Awakening. I prefer the system in Echoes, but this does provide a nice way to grind supports, which was pretty awful in older games.

Grinding/Cantors: Agreed with you here. Grinding is almost never fun for me, and while I loved Echoes, this was something that really could have used some refinement.

Lack of Weapon Triangle: Agreed, though I can't see this being an issue moving forward anyway, as you said.

Maps/AI: I agree Conquest was superior here, the more variety the better.

Bulky Units: Probably agree...never thought much about this one but units did feel a lot tankier. Not a huge deal for me I guess.

------------------------------

Outside of what you said, some things I'd like to see return or change in FE 2018:

 

  • Nice compelling story with a conflict that actually makes sense. Awakening felt too generic, and Fates was convoluted and filled with plot holes. Echoes was probably the first time I cared about the conflict in a Fire Emblem since Radiant Dawn. For a game series with war as the focus...this is kind of a problem!
  • My Unit/Tactician as an observer character, not a key story character. Robin was pushing this a bit already, but Corrin had no idea what he/she wanted to be. Having an avatar in a game like Fire Emblem is unnecessary (I'd rather take an established MC any day)...but having an avatar with an established backstory doesn't even make sense, and contradicts the point of having an avatar in the first place. It was like Fates was going after two rabbits and catching neither. Blazing Sword had the best inclusion of an avatar so far...i.e...basically just watching from the sidelines and almost never showing up.
  • No more children! I like the romance options, but the additions of kids just makes me cringe, especially when their implementation is as contrived as it was in Fates. If they are brought back, find some good story reason for it, and not just create a random other dimension to fast-bake them into adults. Gosh what sad pointless lives those kids in Fates led. /rant
  • Depth of Supports vs. Breadth. I get why Awakening and Fates went with a wider variety of support conversations...but to me, the GBA titles had the best and most compelling supports in the series so far. Hector/Lyndis and Eliwood/Ninian were fantastic, and even changed the outcome of the story in Blazing Sword. It was a disappointment to go from such compelling support conversations to "Oh I'm shy I want to be more outgoing....oops it's hard to not be shy...I guess it's okay to not be shy...let's get married." I'd much rather have a few well written pairings than a million trivial ones.
  • Ability to auto-promote at level 21. Enough said...I just prefer this over having to wait for Master seals to show up.
  • Weapon durability to return. I know this is annoying, but I prefer it over the stat debuff mechanic in Fates. Inventory management adds a certain managerial charm to the game that I enjoyed.

 

I could probably think of some more things...but this is what's important enough to come to mind right now. For the record, I do enjoy Awakening and Fates...but they both brought about mechanics I really didn't like...and well...I'm very critical of this franchise I love so much. Overall, I'd say Path of Radiance is the gold standard I hold for the franchise, but that's not to say there aren't mechanics out there that could improve it.

I agree with everything you said here. I hope they give us map designs on par with radiant dawn. hopefully enemy turns don't take as long with some of the longer maps but I'd prefer this. You have casual mode making it accessible along with everything you stated and RD difficulty and we have the perfect FE.



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