Forums - Nintendo Discussion - What I hope FE Echoes doesn't mean for FE 2018

Faelco said:
MTZehvor said:

I mean, if you've leveled up enough times to get through multiple reclasses, then chances are your character is going to be stupidly overpowered regardless of whether they're paired up or not. That sounds like a complaint more at being able to grind than the pair up mechanic. And, well, if you don't want broken characters, then...maybe just don't grind.

Anyway, I'd be against pulling pair up entirely. It was seriously improved in Fates and added another layer of complexity to the strategy (choosing whether to push for more offensive or defensive options). If they ironed out the last few wrinkles for FE 16, I'd be genuinely excited for the possibilities.

I've put 2 complaints in one comment, but you can win the whole game without ever thinking if you just put your 2 best characters in a pair, without even grinding.  And grind or no grind, the multi-class system makes it too easy to erase the weaknesses of the characters. In older games, even when your characters where overpowered, they kept their weaknesses and didn't become that broken.

 

Only the Lunatic mode asked me to grind a bit, because I wanted to try different characters, but you don't even need to grind to get broken characters. The gameplay itself is broken anyway...

 

@OP: You should try Radiant Dawn or even its prequel Path of Radiance. You might change your mind on what is the best FE. If you like strategy and challenge... 

I don't recall it being that broken without abusing tonics, but regardless, I think that's an issue with balancing rather than the idea itself being unredeemably bad. I think Fates showed just how much potential pairing up/reclassing has when most of the balancing issues from Awakening were accounted for, and given how well it worked out there I think it'd be premature to remove it just because there were admittedly crinks that needed ironing out after Awakening.



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Lonely_Dolphin said:
Platina said:
This is a remake of an old game so it's not likely indicative of what the next game will be

Interestingly enough, this game reminded me what set the original games apart from Awakening and Fates and I really liked it, was a breath of fresh air, despite being a remake. You need to keep in mind that this is a remake of the game. Newer mechanics such as reclassing/map design/pair ups aren't added or changed because of the remake. Killing the Cantors kills all of their summons so aim for those.

> Double promotions and promoting system
Rather than grinding up to 20 and then promoting, you have the option to promote at level 10 with bigger stat boosts if your character was RNG screwed. The option is still there to grind to 20 (which I did) but it truly incentivize promoting early. With double promotions, promoting early isn't too bad either since you won't be level capped easily. The real grind of the newer games is the reclassing and skill system. You need to grind much more whereas here you can get all the skills with a single level up path. Being unable to reclass makes your characters specific and specialized so there are strategies, though Dread Fighters are just as broken in this game as in Awakening.

> Weapons and Magic
The classic triangle is nice for strategies and when Fates threw all weapons into the mix, it made this a bit weird. Magics were truly the strongest in the original FE games, so having it drain your life and having a fixed accuracy percentage remedies this. Bows are a bit broken but at least weight and accuracy isn't perfect. The equipment slot is a really nice addition, though you probably will just go with rings

The problem is getting to the Cantors, and they can be pretty tough on their own. But yeah I know it's a remake, and I guess I can understand them wanting to stay faithful, especially if this is indeed a one of thing. I do like how different it is yet still being a good game in it's own right, I'd just rather this not become the standard for the series is all.

I don't see how not being able to reclass means there's more strategys, only the opposite. For example, on my Lunatic Conquest run, I wanted to fully take advantage of Laslow's personal skill, combining it with Rally Skill which he naturally gets on promotion, and Rally Speed n Amaterasu from his waifu Azura, essentially making him a rally-heal bot. Without reclassing options this strat (among so, so many) wouldn't be possible. Getting him to that point also affects my strategy during chapters since I have to make sure he and Azura are fighting together enough. Also magic in Echoes is still pretty OP I'd say, HP cost is negligible and it ignores terrain bonuses. It's definitely OP in Awakening aswell, so if what you say about older games is true then Fates is the only time magic was actually balanced funnily enough.

 

Not being able to reclass means your character is specialized, rather than being well rounded with reclassing. Therefore, you need to pick your team better and positioning becomes more important. Which character attacks who and in what order is important. Of course, this only really matters on the final few stages or on Lunatic.

Magic has always been really powerful in basically all the FE games, but like I said, having preset accuracy means you can't always hit even on terrain that has no bonuses. Terrain bonuses are a bit too powerful in this game, though :p



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I want FE 2018 to have good graphics, good characters, good music, and Full Voice Acting like FE Echoes



TorterraBoy said:
I want FE 2018 to have good graphics, good characters, good music, and Full Voice Acting like FE Echoes

Same here. I would buy it day one. 



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I just didn't like how the items were handled. Really, really disliked that. Other than that, I hope the next game keeps the castle mechanism from Fates and the Dungeon mechanism from Echoes. I really loved actually controlling the character and having mini battles. That was super awesome.



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uran10 said:

I agree with everything you said here. I hope they give us map designs on par with radiant dawn. hopefully enemy turns don't take as long with some of the longer maps but I'd prefer this. You have casual mode making it accessible along with everything you stated and RD difficulty and we have the perfect FE.

Yeah, Radiant Dawn got a bit too big at times, and some battles had way too many non-player controlled units, but overall I really liked the map designs in that one.

I'm perfectly okay with casual mode and multiple difficulty options...I don't see the value in being elitist with my hobbies. The more people that can get to enjoy these games, the better. I just hope I get a challenge out of it without having to beat the game first...Awakening and Fates: Birthright were cakewalks even on Hard Mode.



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Three things that are probably locks for the next FE game on Switch

1. Full voice acting... Obviously there are no reasons not to and after Echoes it is expected.

2. Relationship/Support system... Echoes has done ok, but you look at the sales and push and I think it is obvious what games Intelligent Systems and the public went all in on and why. I mean they added a half baked version into the mobile game for goodness sake.

3. DLC... Bout that money man.


Personally, given they are moving from 3DS to a HD system and their previous first steps on new systems with different technology, I don't expect them to be ready in 2018 or at least not with a lot of help from another developer involved with HD experience or a game that isn't of the best technical quality like the N64 like models in Path of Radiance or the missing feet in Awakening.



uran10 said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

Yeah I haven't played or even seen the original NES version, so I wouldn't know what's stayed the same or changed between it and Echoes. I would assume the watered down pair up system is new though.

 

I'm an Awakening baby here, and yeah looks like we're of opposite minds on this. I loved planning out team comps and the satisfaction of seeing my own unique builds working just as planned! Sounds like you're more of a minimalist so I definitely see Echoes being a good fit for ya.

"watered down pair ups" is how supports were originally done and honestly how I prefer them. Honestly, I prefer the older games. If I to say what the perfect FE game is it would be radiant dawn due to the great maps and the way everything was handled. Nice difficulty too.

I completely agree.

 

Also, sorry dolphin, but a game being more focused doesn't make it minimalistic. It makes it a better game because you spend more time enjoying the story and coming up with strategies for every map than to grind characters and breed them/class change them to have an OP team that one shots everything. I see you like to one shot units, but that makes the movement and weapon type all you get to think about. It removes alot of tactical elements, especially from the map layouts, wich used to play a critical role, but not anymore.



Faelco said: 

@OP: You should try Radiant Dawn or even its prequel Path of Radiance. You might change your mind on what is the best FE. If you like strategy and challenge... 

Well I also like freedom and customization so I probably wouldn't change my mind, but we'll see whenever the Switch gets Virtual Console!

 

Super_Boom said:

Outside of what you said, some things I'd like to see return or change in FE 2018:

 

  • Nice compelling story with a conflict that actually makes sense. Awakening felt too generic, and Fates was convoluted and filled with plot holes. Echoes was probably the first time I cared about the conflict in a Fire Emblem since Radiant Dawn. For a game series with war as the focus...this is kind of a problem!
  • My Unit/Tactician as an observer character, not a key story character. Robin was pushing this a bit already, but Corrin had no idea what he/she wanted to be. Having an avatar in a game like Fire Emblem is unnecessary (I'd rather take an established MC any day)...but having an avatar with an established backstory doesn't even make sense, and contradicts the point of having an avatar in the first place. It was like Fates was going after two rabbits and catching neither. Blazing Sword had the best inclusion of an avatar so far...i.e...basically just watching from the sidelines and almost never showing up.
  • No more children! I like the romance options, but the additions of kids just makes me cringe, especially when their implementation is as contrived as it was in Fates. If they are brought back, find some good story reason for it, and not just create a random other dimension to fast-bake them into adults. Gosh what sad pointless lives those kids in Fates led. /rant
  • Depth of Supports vs. Breadth. I get why Awakening and Fates went with a wider variety of support conversations...but to me, the GBA titles had the best and most compelling supports in the series so far. Hector/Lyndis and Eliwood/Ninian were fantastic, and even changed the outcome of the story in Blazing Sword. It was a disappointment to go from such compelling support conversations to "Oh I'm shy I want to be more outgoing....oops it's hard to not be shy...I guess it's okay to be shy...let's get married." I'd much rather have a few well written pairings than a million trivial ones.
  • Ability to auto-promote at level 21. Enough said...I just prefer this over having to wait for Master seals to show up.
  • Weapon durability to return. I know this is annoying, but I prefer it over the stat debuff mechanic in Fates. Inventory management adds a certain managerial charm to the game that I enjoyed.

 

I could probably think of some more things...but this is what's important enough to come to mind right now. For the record, I do enjoy Awakening and Fates...but they both brought about mechanics I really didn't like...and well...I'm very critical of this franchise I love so much. Overall, I'd say Path of Radiance is the gold standard I hold for the franchise, but that's not to say there aren't mechanics out there that could improve it.

I could get behind most of this, especially the avatar not being a focus of the story, but man I love me some kids! Just furthered the customization element, albeit at the cost of story, but eh, I'll take gameplay over story any day!

 

Platina said: 

Not being able to reclass means your character is specialized, rather than being well rounded with reclassing. Therefore, you need to pick your team better and positioning becomes more important. Which character attacks who and in what order is important. Of course, this only really matters on the final few stages or on Lunatic.

Magic has always been really powerful in basically all the FE games, but like I said, having preset accuracy means you can't always hit even on terrain that has no bonuses. Terrain bonuses are a bit too powerful in this game, though :p

 

I just gave an example of a specialized unit through reclassing, unless you really think Kinshi Knight Laslow with his low stats and low weapon ranks can really handle any situation lel. I mean reclassing doesn't mean you can be multiple classes at once, i.e. if you reclass to an Archer, then you're an Archer with all it's pros and cons. I still say it's the other way around, picking your units is more important when you have options because now it's possible to make not well balanced team comps, rather than the game just giving everything you need for every situation. For instance in Conquest you don't have to get more Archers than the 1 default, but if you don't then some of the later chapters are going to be a lot more difficult. 

But Seraphim n Excalibur have 90+ accuracy and Sages get a skill that increases accuracy, so I pretty much always hit. :L

 

 

Nem said: 

Also, sorry dolphin, but a game being more focused doesn't make it minimalistic. It makes it a better game because you spend more time enjoying the story and coming up with strategies for every map than to grind characters and breed them/class change them to have an OP team that one shots everything. I see you like to one shot units, but that makes the movement and weapon type all you get to think about. It removes alot of tactical elements, especially from the map layouts, wich used to play a critical role, but not anymore.

Ha, semantics. Well there's no denying that Echoes gameplay doesn't have as much depth, I mean cmon there's no weapon triangle. Sure the story will probably end up the best of the 3DS era, but I'm all about gameplay. Also grinding isn't mandatory, it's not even necessary if you want to reclass or get kids. And you misinterpret my meaning, well yes I like 1-shoting as much as the next guy, but I don't like that all of my units can take hits well. It lessens the importance of positioning and field wiping when you have no squishy units to be always mindful of.



Echoes was a big letdown and is easily the worst Fire Emblem released in the West, and that's by a very comfortable margin. But it was a remake and it's not selling well, so it's unlikely that much of its mechanics and game logic makes it into Fire Emblem Switch.



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